I mean, there is some level of propaganda and manipulation. To there isn’t at all sounds like it’s just human nature that people come up with the most racist shit. But we believe that people can change if the material conditions change. If we can change the environment these people are in, they won’t come up with such horrible stuff. Or at least, after a few generations they might not.
I think people mostly align to the system that advances their material interests. That’s why upper middle class suburbia produces a lot more reactionaries that fantasize about doing things from the saw movies to “home invaders” (we know what race they are in the fantasies). That’s why the tech sector went right wing, even a lot of minorities once they started making 300k plus after being “woke” earlier.
Edit: i am willing to entertain other theories for my observations but recent politics have made me cynical.
I would mostly agree. There are instances of class traitors among the bourgeoisie who have aided leftist causes. But perhaps there are other material forces at play for them too.
I would say it’s always some of both. Otherwise class traitors wouldn’t exist. And in the case of like white supremacy, that is going back generations in being established and normalized, and has yet to be dismantled on a system level in its strongest bases (such as the US). Colonialism goes even further back than the establishment of white supremacy, if I’m not mistaken, and that hasn’t been fully dismantled either, only in some regions.
That’s precisely my point. When Columbus landed on the shores of this hemisphere, there was no propaganda against the natives. He just somehow knew to call them “savages” etc. He knew right away that’s what he needed to do to justify taking their stuff and making them slaves.
There was inherent propaganda already in place from centuries of European warfare such as the Reconquista and some argument can be had that this sort of mindset came from wanting to emulate Rome and influenced by the massive continent-spanning religious institution that birthed from it. Roughly at around the same time, Europeans were beginning to “explore” Sub-Saharan Africa. There’s plenty of previous precedent that could have created “propaganda” in the mind of the settlers.
Ok, but then again that was also powered by material interests. I am over giving a cop out to people and saying oh poor little child was led by pied piper to be a racist freak.
This also stems from arrogance. Oh we are so smart to see through it, if only the rest of the population was as smart as us to break from the programming. If there are class traitors that can break from propaganda, there should be more of them especially after the recent genocide.
Nobody is saying that. If anything, they had the chance to see through these interests upon meeting a new culture and instead chose to exploit and destroy it. There is no “you have to give justification”. Never was. Instead, you have to recognize that people have precedent and reason for what they believe in. Even if it’s nonsensical as “I killed them because my dog told me too”. In the case I just quoted, it would tell you whoever said that is suffering mental distress rather than trying to think it’s a justification.
The programming is also very, very strong. Many of us weren’t communists or socialists originally. The effort to actually get there can be near insurmountable for some people especially when you take a look at the state of critical thinking, education and overall higher-learning in the global hegemon. For Europe, it’s tradition and clinging onto the ideals of dead and gone empires.
Exactly. I don’t mean it as an excuse for people who think or do horrible things, but more that when we better understand where things come from, then we can better counter them.
I mean, there is some level of propaganda and manipulation. To there isn’t at all sounds like it’s just human nature that people come up with the most racist shit. But we believe that people can change if the material conditions change. If we can change the environment these people are in, they won’t come up with such horrible stuff. Or at least, after a few generations they might not.
I think people mostly align to the system that advances their material interests. That’s why upper middle class suburbia produces a lot more reactionaries that fantasize about doing things from the saw movies to “home invaders” (we know what race they are in the fantasies). That’s why the tech sector went right wing, even a lot of minorities once they started making 300k plus after being “woke” earlier.
Edit: i am willing to entertain other theories for my observations but recent politics have made me cynical.
I would mostly agree. There are instances of class traitors among the bourgeoisie who have aided leftist causes. But perhaps there are other material forces at play for them too.
True, and that’s why those people are heroes. The fact that we even call them “class traitors” says that most people think along class lines.
I would say it’s always some of both. Otherwise class traitors wouldn’t exist. And in the case of like white supremacy, that is going back generations in being established and normalized, and has yet to be dismantled on a system level in its strongest bases (such as the US). Colonialism goes even further back than the establishment of white supremacy, if I’m not mistaken, and that hasn’t been fully dismantled either, only in some regions.
That’s precisely my point. When Columbus landed on the shores of this hemisphere, there was no propaganda against the natives. He just somehow knew to call them “savages” etc. He knew right away that’s what he needed to do to justify taking their stuff and making them slaves.
There was inherent propaganda already in place from centuries of European warfare such as the Reconquista and some argument can be had that this sort of mindset came from wanting to emulate Rome and influenced by the massive continent-spanning religious institution that birthed from it. Roughly at around the same time, Europeans were beginning to “explore” Sub-Saharan Africa. There’s plenty of previous precedent that could have created “propaganda” in the mind of the settlers.
Ok, but then again that was also powered by material interests. I am over giving a cop out to people and saying oh poor little child was led by pied piper to be a racist freak.
This also stems from arrogance. Oh we are so smart to see through it, if only the rest of the population was as smart as us to break from the programming. If there are class traitors that can break from propaganda, there should be more of them especially after the recent genocide.
Nobody is saying that. If anything, they had the chance to see through these interests upon meeting a new culture and instead chose to exploit and destroy it. There is no “you have to give justification”. Never was. Instead, you have to recognize that people have precedent and reason for what they believe in. Even if it’s nonsensical as “I killed them because my dog told me too”. In the case I just quoted, it would tell you whoever said that is suffering mental distress rather than trying to think it’s a justification.
The programming is also very, very strong. Many of us weren’t communists or socialists originally. The effort to actually get there can be near insurmountable for some people especially when you take a look at the state of critical thinking, education and overall higher-learning in the global hegemon. For Europe, it’s tradition and clinging onto the ideals of dead and gone empires.
I understand the point you are making now. Apologies for arguing something that wasn’t your point to begin with.
This is more what I was trying to get at.
Exactly. I don’t mean it as an excuse for people who think or do horrible things, but more that when we better understand where things come from, then we can better counter them.