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I switched to Mullvad and Tuta yesterday. Still working on moving password managers. I’ve let some things slide in the past but Yen has turned into such a big asshole. Proton deserves a better CEO.
Literally a Nazbol, a joke ideology indistinguishable from just being a Nazi in red. Being a true believer makes him a Nazi and pushing Nazis as spoilers makes him, guess what, a Nazi.
It’d be one thing if he got pushed out afterwards but the reality is Mullvad’s founders support ethnic cleansing, and as much as I don’t like Yen I don’t think the timing of their compliments can attach that sin to them, provably.
Holy shit, well that slipped through my research. Time to checkout IVPN, maybe?
I switched to IVPN. So far so good.
Isnt the founder of mullvad just as much of an asshole funding far right politics etc ? Not meant as a criticism of you, I’m in the same boat trying to move my stuff and its so fucking frustrating that so many of these companies are either led by psychopaths or being enshittified in other ways. I guess I’m looking more and more at self hosting shit again, but that also scares me a bit for stuff like email and password managers and hardware prices are insane… But either way I’m definitely spreading everything out to different companies this time… Not looking forward to changing my login email on every single website again after just having moved it to proton about 2 years ago…
So far I’ve come up with:
Email: Tuta seems okay
PW-Manager: Found no good service yet, self hosting Vaultwarden seems like an option but I read some concerning things about changing company structures at Bitwarde wich it depends on that implies them possibly moving away from FOSS
VPN: Dont know honestly
Calendar: Im with murena from /e/os seems fine for now
Cloud Storage: Dont really need this, as i have everything on my server but i need a better backup strategy for that server and my god harddisk prices are crazy…
Wow this is super shitty. I hope they can unionize. Dude seems to be cras h ing the ship on purpose.
they need to get rid of that ceo and the cto in fucking mediately
Any CEO+ putting AI before people should be outed ASAP. Fuck this guy And AI apologists too.
Oh well.
What’s the next e-mail platform to try before it enshityiies? Thinking of going back to postal mail.
Tuta is pretty decent I use them only for email/calendar so if they go to shit it’s easier to jump ship. Gotta look into an alt password manager since I don’t trust a vibe coded app to be secure with my passwords.
I’ve been very happy with Bitwarden for password management. Their hosted service is pretty good and if you want to retain complete control you can self host.
currently still using bitwarden but recently there’s been signs that the app might go full closed source in the upcoming years, and then start adding god knows what. i’d keep a backup of your passwords somewhere and be ready to move somewhere else if need be.
https://community.bitwarden.com/t/published-version-update-in-app-stores/102750
Seconded on Tuta. I’m currently pretty locked into the Proton ecosystem, but I have a Tuta account as well, and it’s pretty usable if all you really care about is having an email that works. (haven’t used their calendar yet, so I can’t speak to it)
Definitely less feature-rich than Proton though. Worse spam filter, more basic UI, no auto-categorization of email by topic, etc.
I’m in your boat. I really rely on their VPN for my media server, especially need a VPN with port forwarding.
It’s also less safe than proton from a legal from being German tho. So a major step down if that’s what you care about.
The thing i really don’t like about tuta is the android app will just not send any notifications sometimes until you open it.
Here’s a discussion on Tuta’s github to you might want to check out. I guess they’re anti-AI for marketing purposes, but fine with their own devs committing AI-assisted code.
I just recently deleted my entries in my commercial password manager for all my email addresses. I’ve written those down. Between vibe coding and vibe hacking, the internet is going to be chaotic for a few years… certainly at least until the Butlerian Jihad comes for shitheel CEOs like this.
I use pass which requires a bit of a set up but has been working flawlessly so far.
With E2EE:
- Tuta
- Mailfence
- Startmail
Without:
- Posteo
- Mailbox
- Fastmail
Disclaimer: I haven’t actually tried any of these except Tuta.
The “anti big tech” that want’s to burn CLAUDE tokens instead of hiring engineers…
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NDb5ArWdj1c their youtube short for quick summary of the article to those that want
Holy shit this CEO is fully unhinged, I feel so much for the employees at Proton. What the fuck. I like Proton products T.T
You can help us by spreading this https://molecule.build/
we need collective worker power at proton
I have never bought into the Proton hate seen on Lemmy, as most if not all of it came from a fundamental misunderstanding of how technology works. And if anything, this report confirms that the employees inside Proton really do seem to care about the product.
But ultimately, if the CEO is this hostile internally, those employees will leave and the product will just enshittify at an exponential rate. This is actually some very damning insight into the future of Proton.
Proton has a couple competitors that are viable to switch to, if not somewhat half baked next to Proton. But it’s important to understand for the people who have been berating Proton for handing over metadata to authorities and similar things, that Tutanota and other competitors will have all the same problems.
It’s not a misunderstanding. I hate them because they deal in crypto.
Proton uses cryptography, thats applied mathematics, not bitcoin lol.
I don’t really care if they hand metadata to authorities. I want to replace “we give you free services, in return we spy on you, then we ALSO want you to pay us later and we’ll still spy on you” with “pay us for our services, we literally can’t spy on you bc of encryption”.
Whoever has that will get my money, (well, except Proton because fuck that CEO).
You’d be surprised at how many people on Lemmy have decided Proton is lying to people and secretly sharing all your data with US authorities because of the handful of times they have been ordered to by law hand over metadata that does not include the content of their data.
These people then say to ditch Proton and use Tutanota instead as if they they somehow won’t be compelled to do the exact same thing.
Or to use Mullvad…
I also would like to have a perfect VPN & mail client, but for now nothing beats proton it seems (fuck that loser CEO attitude though, what the hell).
Andy Yen’s political afilliations are one thing, but this does indicate an imminent decline in the function of the product.
Lemmy is odd. Its more tech aware then reddit yet some how just had ignorant and stupid as reddit on tech related matters.
I think it’s just anyone who actually understands or has a reasonable take don’t bother engaging with the stupid.
While the idiots open their mouths.
Proton ain’t perfect and yen is an idiot. But some one the claims I’ve seen about proton baffle me.
People literally expect Proton to break the law. That’s what lavabit did and it was their demise.
I haven’t seen this view. I mostly see people defending Andy Yen when anyone brings up the first red flags he dropped
Proton products have been great for me, I use them all every day. Not renewing when my sub is up and I’ll quote Andy Yen as why.
So what are the alternatives?
Haven’t done enough research to say yet. Others have been suggesting in the thread. Might self host my passwords. Email seems the easiest switch with the most options. Cloud storage, not sure yet; I need a decent amount of it for crucial backups.
Well, that’s the problem IMO, there isn’t really a perfect alternative.
I never claimed that there was.
I didn’t say you were 🤷🏼♀️
I suppose I’m just confused at the purpose of the sentiment, then. Not having a perfect alternative is not a good excuse to continue supporting Proton with its current leadership and direction.
You’d be surprised how many companies have CEO’s like this. Mine is the same way. Use AI or get fired is becoming very standard.
The same CEO who, a while ago, praised the Republicans? How can a company under someone like that ever be “privacy first”? If I remember correctly, there were a lot of people acting as if this wouldn’t affect the products in of itself, but how could it not?
My thoughts exactly! I was banned on a Reddit sub for critiquing him. Seems he really has his fanboys.
yikes… i need to dump proton.
I get downvoted on Lemmy every time I point this out. It’s like clockwork.
Andy Yen, the CEO of Proton, had a message for an employee in the company’s security Slack channel who urged the company to at least take a few days to pentest newly written code before pushing it live. “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,” Yen wrote in the channel at the end of August. “Stop thinking always of how to be slower, and focus more on how to be faster.”
“Due to insufficient velocity,” Proton is not on track to achieve its annual recurring revenue target by the end of the year, one internal document obtained by 404 Media reads. Proton’s year-over-year growth is also “far away from what the market today considers to be good,” and, “By all metrics that matter, we’re an underperforming company.”
In a Slack channel dedicated to thanking people for their work, Yen jumped in. “Get it fixed,” he wrote, referring to Proton’s Reddit post announcing the feature. “Now Reddit is pissed and we look worse than Tuta,” he added, referring to a Proton competitor.
I think he believes that he will be the next Steve Jobs by screaming to their employers and forcing AI to increase annual revenue and imagine TAKING REDDIT COMMENTS SERIOUSLY AS AN CEO and comparing themselves with Tuta.
Just a friendly reminder that Mozilla (creators of Firefox/Thunderbird) created a email service called Thundermail in case you want to check it out, I honestly trust more in Mozilla than in Proton, and I used Proton for like 7 years, is a bit expensive and is currently on beta access, but I love Firefox so I feel like this is the way to give them money they can actually use.
And, boy, will he ever be surprised when his tantrum sinks the company.
Manbaby Proton CEO Andy Yen confusing his codebase with what he fills his diaper with is sure gonna turn a lot of people away from the service.
Isn’t it a paid service, though? I trust Mozilla more than Proton as well… but I also can’t afford a paid service at the moment.
Yep, and not a cheaper one I fear :( This one is like $72 annually, it don’t have that many features but it works, and I like Mozilla, so I think it deserve my money.
I hope you can afford it soon, $72 is too expensive in my opinion for a email service but is Mozilla. I think you should at least register so you can receive an invitation, and maybe when you receive it you can afford it, I think they don’t expire anyways unless you use it and don’t pay.
I already got my invitation 🙂 I hope I can afford it at some point, too.
Nice!
Thunderbird in case you want to check it out
Oh, I shall indeed check it out.
Looks like it could be a good contender, except for the price. $6/month for 30 GB of Mail Storage, 60 GB of Send Storage, 1 Inbox, 15 Email Addresses and 3 Custom Domains isn’t exactly amazing. Especially with options like Mailbox.org and others.
In my humble opinion: they are stealing you with that price for what it offers.
Buuuuuuuuuut, it’s Mozilla, and I’ve been using Firefox for ~10 years, so this is my way to “pay them back”. It also contains a super useful feature in my opinion called “Send”, that basically if you have attachments that are too big to share through email, you can send them through “Send”, imagine Mediafire for sending files, but inside your mail client, I don’t use it that often but is useful when you need to share an .iso or something like that instead of a link to a cloud service.
Does sending large files still work if the other person has a different provider, or do they have to be using Thundermail as well?
Recipients with Thunderbird see your files as natural email attachments, others can access them securely via a link.
*checks it out*
“join waitlist”
:/
Yep, sorry, that what I mean with beta, I wasn’t specific :(
I THINK they are currently accepting people often, cuz I registered 2 different accounts and the second one was registered recently and got accepted a few days ago
It makes no sense, Proton was just on for a free win and growth, they just had to keep status quo. I dont know who Yen has been speaking to, but he has become a complete nutjob (unless he always was?).
He probably was in that Ted conference not so long ago where it appears all world CEOs went and they all were drinking the ai koolaid. My ceo also came from there talking insane shit and that we should adopt it and it’s the future and that so many companies are using it for cool stuff. Completely insane.
I think he’s always been an idiot and and a shithead, but yeah he has basically just did more damage to proton than anyone else ever has or ever will.
And, of course, the implicit assumption that “More AI = more profits!”
What did Tuta do?
Tuta is based in Germany, so they are more likely to have to comply with information requests as Germany is part of the 14 Eyes international information sharing network. Thus countries like the USA may be able to get your info from Tuta legally.
Other than that? Honestly I’m not sure.
you can look at the privacy policy to see what they store unencrypted. tldr; don’t use if you suspect that governments are after you, but otherwise it’s fine.
Proton’s year-over-year growth is also “far away from what the market today considers to be good,”
More insight here. You can’t have a company focused on privacy and security and expect to have the same growth as Google. You’re a niche market, and you pigeon-holed yourself on day 1. That’s just not how that works.
I have been inclined to give Proton the benefit of doubt with some of their stuff, but this is pretty rough.
Oh fucking hell…
I gave him the benefit of the doubt with his trump “support” comments… but this is clear as day, asshole behaviour…
Been a protonmail customer for over 10 years… not sure where to move next
Same, that good will has evaporated though as he’s continued to demonstrate poor decision-making and social skills. Bad traits for a business leader.
I have a lifetime Simplelogin account because I love that service… It’s now part of proton (as they bought it), so I think I’m stuck.
I’m in the same boat. If all my email aliases get stolen though it’s not a huge loss for me. Now their password manager (which I also have a lifetime subscription for) is something I’m going look into a self-hosted solution. Although the only self hosted part would be syncing some file they lives locally on my machine.
I’ve been having a great experience with vaultwarden
This leadership mentality doesn’t look good for the future of Proton.
They want to appear that they are about security but seems they are more in boat with Microsoft, now and into the future, of AI does all the work.
AI psychosis
Some choice quotes:
“The CEO is in full AI psychosis and has been for a while now,” one of the sources told 404 Media.
I think it’s important to use the term “AI psychosis” until it becomes mainstream. There’s power in simplifying, in two words, the mental illness that has spread to nearly every major-company CEO and C-suite MBA hump. And until it becomes a meme, until they know the general public sees them and knows they are blindly confident in something they don’t understand, that we know they are conning themselves and us, they won’t spare a moment of introspection to reconsider.
“Perception is more important than truth, the truth doesn’t matter if you don’t win on perception.”
Let’s unpack this. The programmers are concerned about Proton’s push for security, and they push back on objectively unmaintainable AI code - to say nothing of Yen’s bullying to push to live before it’s even tested - and this is Yen’s response. In essence: Security does not matter more than the perception of speed.
This is demonstrably idiotic, because security issues are the “truth” being undermined here, and when someone hacks or compromises key parts of your service, that will be far more damaging some CEO-naval-gazing version of “look how fast we are.”
In all, the many quotes from engineers really do the job convincing that this guy is not just a bad CEO, but a bad person. I’m sure to Board members or billionaires, this type of psychopathy and lack of empathy looks like a feature and not a bug. This probably won’t change that, but every moment spent holding up a mirror helps.
i apologize, not to throw shade at you because I fully agree with the comment, but
let's unpack thisis a bit of a trigger phrase along the lines ofsit with that a minuteornot just x, but yYou’re right to push back on this.
Yup, totally. AI outputs also killed my confidence using hyphens mid-sentence (but I still do it because it’s just how I think). But thanks, I’ll actually make a note to stop using that AI-hijacked phrasing…
Load bearing comment.
Be careful though, just like “Trump Derangement Syndrome” got swapped from meaning people crazed for Trump to meaning crazed against Trump… AI psychosis could be twisted by the media (tech bro owned) into “people who dislike AI are crazy.”
I’m giving them a month to fire Yen and change direction or I’m out. I’m also looking for good recommendations of where to go - so far I’m looking at Tuta or Murena (my phone is already on /e/OS)
I just mailbox.org with a custom domain and it’s been great, no complaints.
I never liked proton’s app suite approach instead of picking one or two things and getting good at them so I’ve replaced all other services with other options.
I’ve been using Tuta for 8 or so years now and outside some rare technical issues years ago, I’ve been pretty happy with it. I’m also not aware of any drama they’d be involved in so they have that going for them.
The horrible search turned me off. I wish it made sense to support tuta but it was painful a year or two ago when I switched. Has it gotten any better?
I don’t really use search but I can play around with it to see how it is now. Is there anything specific that bothered you about it I should keep in mind?
It defaulted to only searching from the same day. If you pick a longer search range it warns you that it will take a while, and it does (did)
I spent a year jumping between Proton, Mailbox, Tuta, MXroute etc, until a wise Lemmy user mentioned they had gotten on well with Fastmail. It fit like a glove and I haven’t looked back.
Damnit, another one I hadn’t heard of and it looks pretty great lol. I’m on mailbox.org and I like it, so I won’t jump ship anytime soon, but what were the major differences between the two (if you have time and opinions)?
Also, for anyone who cares Fastmail is Australian (which satisfies my personal “not under fascist/expansionalist” check).
I was on Mailbox for about 3 months, and I liked the fact their CEO is someone who knows everything there is to do with email protocols. I found their lack of updates to the backend system on their drive solution frustrating (Open Exchange), plus the smallish size of mail storage. I have family members I wanted to move off GMail and they have 30GB or some of mail storage. Also, not the greatest UI. But, as an email solution, solid as a rock.
I’d forgotten I was also on Infomaniak for about a year. This seemed the perfect fit, until I realised how convoluted their system was and would a no-go for bringing family members into it.
I tried Proton, but just couldn’t sell myself on their services. They are also expensive for a family solution with too many other products I don’t need (VPN, Password). No easy SMTP either. I have a mum who loves Thunderbird, so easy SMTP is a must. I don’t like the bridge solution they offer: just support SMTP FFS!!
Tuta? Just too basic a service and no SMTP
Soverin? Looked at them, didn’t try them.
MXroute? I liked that for the fact you can bring a lot of address across for not much money. But, still only custom domains.
Then I came across someone on here who said they had tried Fastmail and stuck with it, so I gave it a go. Loved it from the start!
You can create a basic @fastmail account, then bring across a custom domain to that account later and make it the defacto login. Loved this. Tick!
Lots of email storage. Tick!
Cheap for family plan. Tick!
3rd part SMTP client support. Tick!
Nice apps for macOS, Android etc. Tick!
Good signature support across different emails, masked emails… lots of basic things, just done well.
And I use DavX for calendar and contact support on my Graphene pixel phone, and Fastmail is supported with easy-setup, coming from Infomaniak with lots of app-passwords, this was a double tick!!
Phew, longer reply than I planned. Back to work…
EDIT: Oh, and I looked at Hey as well, but that’s off the charts bonkers as an email solution.
