I highly doubt the left will do anything uncivil. How can they win back the country? Is it too late?
Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority.
I think that most of the Americans want this, even if people on the outside do not understand. So in that sense they are right now winning back their country, as confusing as it might sound.
Normally in Democracy the majority or popular vote wins, however due to the electoral college America has, it doesnt necessarily mean the majority voted for the winner. This was the case for Bush, and some other moments in the past.
FYI: it looks like Trump is going to win the popular vote on this one as well.
How in the fuck.
Like what drives a majority of Americans to vote for a demented toddler. It’s insane.
As a kid I always wondered how on Earth did Hitler ever make anyone follow himself, how did those people not realise. Turns out a majority of people are just fucking morons.
Yep and the slow gutting of the education system isn’t making it any better.
You have an entire generation coming of voting age who are rabid Trump supporters. They don’t care about policies or democracy or public institutions. They don’t care about healthcare, social securities, or the stability of the economy.
They don’t care about any of the things that have been built up through generations. They lack critical thinking ability.
The recipe works. If you make dumb kids they will vote for dumb people. It works so well that part of the future plan for a trump presidency is to get rid of the department of education. Solidifying the Republican party indefinitely.
Without critical thinking and with mass media it’s so easy to say every problem that people deal with is because the “other side” made it so. Even if the other side has been doing everything possible to achieve the opposite.
Americans aren’t special. They’re just as vulnerable to fascism as anybody else.
The MAGATs might as well be wearing brownshirts and saluting like Mussolini.
Blaming young people is up their with blaming immigrants and “gays” ect for [insert topic]. I would be very surprised if this was the case.
I think it’s a little more nuanced.
They don’t blame young people. They blame lack of education.
You sure about that?
You have an entire generation coming of voting age who are rabid Trump supporters.
It goes on.
Anecodtally (at this point, this is all these discussions are), I think that Apathy, fear campaigns or outright money and campaigns ect become powerful levers where voting is non-mandatory.
Removed by mod
I used to think Ukrainian politicians were fucking clowns. I guess we got outclowned.
For all practical purposes, about 30% of people are unfeeling morons - basically psychopaths. That’s the number that consistently opposes abortion, for instance. Add to that all the dumbasses who don’t know any better (the undecideds on any extremely obvious moral issue), et voila. That’s how you get slavery, nationalism, genocide, theocracy, you name it.
Unless people are willing to screen for psychopathy and remove it from the gene pool, the human species will keep fucking around until it finds out. Might be nuclear apocalypse or environmental collapse, but at this rate it’s inevitable.
Can we please not start arguing in favor of eugenics?
The rise of the NSDAP has been studied quite a bit. Also, the psychological aspects are really interesting. Basically normal people can make all of this possible as long as the conditions are just right.
Non mandatory voting wouldnt help, being that its more susceptible to eroding a merit process from campaigns of fear or otherwise.
It’s the low turn out. Too many of us are nonparticipants
American politics isnt about choosing the best candidate its about choosing the one u hate least. The dems spent too much time playing identity politics that they forgot to play actuall politics.
And I was so loving Lina Khan’s FTC,
askingamong other things…Edit: autocorrect
And Harris has done worse than Biden in every county in America.
Not every state. Every county.
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It’s actually incredible how they tried to copy Hilary Clinton’s campaign tactics of endorsements and warnings about Trump.
That didn’t work last time. Why would it work now?
Whether it’s 48 or 52 % is an immaterial difference. Every other American who voted, voted for Trump. The rest don’t seem to care either way. He has very broad popular assent and is as popular as Harris give or take a margin of error.
Everyone is lasered-focused on the EC because it makes all the difference for the practicalities, but if one is to make a broad judgement of whether Trump won fair and square the answer is “yeah, mostly”. Further proof is the fact that the House is probably going to be his as well.
Americans now bear the collective responsibility for the horrors of the next 4(+?) years. Do not make the mistake of blaming the popular will of outright fascism on institutional failures, because institutions didn’t force half of Americans to vote for the fascist, again.
I’ll wait 72 hours before settling with it, in case any shenanigans were involved. I expect it’s legitimate, but I want that window open if it’s needed.
Trump is winning the popular vote by a pretty decent margin. The electoral college isn’t the issue here.
They haven’t finished counting that’s why. Rural areas are faster to count and skew conservative.
A republican hasn’t won the popular vote in 20 years. Trump is projected to win but like last time he’ll lose the popular vote and win by virtue of the electoral college.
All the projections I’m seeing him show him almost certainly winning the popular vote. There’s a gap of 6 million votes and almost every state is over 90% reported in. That gap is going to likely shrink a bit, but unfortunately it almost certainly won’t be enough for him to even lose the popular vote.
Lets face it, we’re (assuming you’re american) apparently just a country of facists. It looks like GOP is going to have majority in both houses too so here comes project 2025 I guess.
Sorry bud, not a yank. You have my sympathies though.
If it turns out that he does indeed win the popular vote then yeah I’m sorry for your loss. A nest of at least 50% fascists or fascist enablers.
Heart aches for those that did their civic duty and yet have to suffer the repercussions :(
It looks like turnout is way down compared to last election. Trump is pulling about the same amount he did last time ( maybe a few million down, but there are still results to get). Harris is currently down 15M from where Biden was.
Trump’s support is no larger than it was last time. Harris’ supporters just didn’t show up
Harris’ supporters just didn’t show up
Anyone who didn’t show up is not a Harris supporter.
Wasn’t he ahead in 2016 around this time, but then once all was said and done he was a few mil behind?
u̇nfoṙtcėnetlı, H ſımz t bı ƿinıŋ ð pȯpyulṙ vot æz ƿel.
spoiler
Unfortunately, he seems to be winning the popular vote as well.
I think that most of the Americans want this
Maybe, but none of the facts directly support this.
There have been large campaigns to disenfranchise several types of voters for decades in the country. The Electoral College was designed to be unfair to appease Slave states. Voter turnout is abysmal, only about 35% of eligible citizens vote. Out of those turnout is usually around the same percentage. The highest turnout recently was 2020 only because mail in voting was expanded so dramatically, and even then it was only 67% of registered voters, so it was still only 67% of that original 37% of eligible voters. So with the highest recent turnout, we’re looking at about 25% of eligible citizens actually voting.
I believe that the 67% number for the 2020 election is of eligible voters and not registered voters. While turnout is low, it’s not 25% low.
It was ~67% of eligible voters that were registered to vote. Over 94% of registered voters actually voted.
Dafuk are you talking about? Voter turnout is 67% of all eligible voters. It’s highest since it’s ever been. And Trump won the popular vote. At least look at the facts instead of crying “stolen election”.
No, there is a concerted effort by conservatives to use voter suppression to subvert the will of the majority in the US.
conservatives are clawing back the country right now by hook and by crook.
can’t go on forever, but I don’t know which is going to last longer: the country or the aging frightened conservatives willing to subvert democracy to hang on to control.
Trump wins the popular vote and lemmy is still in denial.
That’s what the Germans thought in 1933
vote against this and save us all from this idiocy.
Nope. There was just more people lined up to vote for more idiocy. We failed the world. I’d say I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’ll help. This is America.
America needs to focus on decentralizing power. That way, when the other side wins, they can’t do much damage. Biggest problem America faces is too much centralized control.
Democracy really is the worst form of government, just not as bad as all the others…
Unfortunately in such polarized times like now, even though majority wants this, the ammount of people for which this is unacceptable is only slightly less than “the majority”. And besides, I believe a big part of “the majority” is just gullible enough to be persuaded they want this while it actually goes against their interests
Something can not be the worst and just not as bad as the others.
It’s a famous quote. The contradiction is intentional. It means democracy has a lot of problems and often looks terrible. However when you step back and consider the alternatives they are worse.
And if the other candidate won, the other half would’ve been in the same state of “this is unacceptable”. Solutions?
Cuz lemmy seems to think if their party wins it’s all good and if the other wins it’s the end of the world. While in reality it seems there’s a 50-50 split with each side equally hating the other.
It is the limitation of democracy and why it is the worst (except all the others) - because it allows this.
How to fix this? These would be a good start: don’t polarize the society like this and create us vs. them mentality. In place of power hungry populists have people in charge who want the best for the country. Don’t enable fascists - they never should make it this far. Respect other people. Invest in education so people understand these basics.
And this is not just about US. It’s scary that this is wherr us got because they are such a big player on the world stage
The whole lemmy has been essentially about “us vs them” for the last few months. With zero discourse tolerated, only one opinion being allowed: trump bad, republicans fascist.
So, if you worry about polarization, you guys are the biggest echo chamber I’ve seen to date.
As an American, I expected most Americans to be at least semi-rational and to recognize what a threat to democracy and our way of life that Trump is. I expected most Republicans to just vote for him out of reflex, but otherwise the rest of America would rise up in our hour of need to vote against this and save us all from this idiocy.
Nope. There was just more people lined up to vote for more idiocy. We failed the world. I’d say I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’ll help. This is America.
Agree, and sadly he won the popular vote too (so far). It’s really bleak how many people don’t vote at all.
They all voted with their wallets. It’s really simple. That’s how these people are able to come into power.
Except Trump isn’t here to help their wallets.
If they could read they would be very upset you said that
It is too late for a while now. Try to be safe, even if that means moving.
And move where?!
Pretty dystopic that you post this quote, because it is doctored to include catholics. Niemöller’s wife explicitly stated that he never included them in his poem. Source: https://martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/martin-niemoeller/was-sagte-niemoeller-wirklich
Martin Niemöllers zweite Frau (seit 1971), Sibylle von Sell schreibt dazu am 23.4.2000 in h-holocaust https://www.h-net.org/~holoweb/ :.“ The trouble with Martin Niemoeller’s „famous quotation“ is that he never wrote it down – which enabled so many hitchhikers over the years to „put themselves on the waggon“. In his „Confession of Guilt“ (as he called it himself: Schuldbekenntnis in German) the Communists came first, then the Trade Unionists and then the Socialists and then the Jews. NO ONE ELSE.”
Just be grateful if you’re not in one of the first groups. I spoke up as loudly as I could.
If I had that answer I would be happy to share.
The problem is that nowhere is safe now. I’m Canadian, and I wish I had somewhere to go. And just imagine how the poor sods in Palestine, Ukraine, and so many other suffering countries, are feeling right now.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Vladimir Putin’s armies weren’t occupying large swaths of Eastern Europe by the end of this term.
I think this is going to be the end of the USA as we know it. After this period, democracy will be significantly impacted.
The western world as a whole should be terrified. There has been a sharp dip towards conservatism that will only accelerate with Trump back at the helm in the US. Brexit didn’t occur in a vacuum.
Though this isn’t about conservatism, is it? Trump doesn’t like democracy and half of the things that shaped the USA. I mean there is some overlap but he should be opposed by any sane conservative. I think it’s more a dip towards fascism or something else.
Can be a bit of both. Everything is prompted by a desire to return to the “before” times. For Trump’s supporters, that is a hypothetical, undefined time when America was “great”. For the Brexiters in the UK, that was the pre-EU period when Britain was a global empire. For the conservatives in Russia, it is the yearning for the USSR days.
Fair enough. I always hope we’ll move towards a better future… And not backwards. But you’re right. You pick some random time in history and then make up some policies that supposedly get you back to that place. And an additional psychological factor is, most of us had our best time when we were young, life was easier, less work and less consequence. So we might want that back instead of our current, more complex life.
By finally doing what it clearly needs to do, splitting in multiple countries so red States can finally become third world countries like they so want to be.
It’s funny that the last time this was floated by Republicans, they thought they were kicking the Democrat states out.
In other words, they thought they were keeping the Federal government.
Republican states need Democrat states far more than vice versa.
If Trump truly does win, Republicans won’t split the country. They’ll make it even more impossible to leave.
I mean, no matter who gets kicked out by who, there would be at least two federal governments… I think most people don’t realize that when a country splits, the (at least two) new entities both become independent countries with their own government…
This isn’t sides anymore.
Until America wants to be tolerant of more than intolerance, it seems it will vote with its penises, wallets, and weapons.
Edit: unnecessary apostrophe
No, no, it’s fine. Americans don’t know how to use apostrophes properly.
Hope there will be a legitimate election in 2028, and show up to the fucking primary before it and in 2026.
I think Trump won because of the economy. Yes, he has a rabid base that really does want his fascism, but the voters who pushed him over the edge are ones suffering because inflation and the wealth gap that has just been allowed to increase unimpeded. Those voters don’t want fascism - they’re just dumb AF and don’t pay attention. They just voted for “change.”
These problems will only increase over the next 4 years, so there will be another opportunity defy the status quo in 2028. We had a chance and failed to do in 2016. We came closer in 2020. We didn’t have a real primary in 2024. When we get to 2028, it’s time to fucking do it.
Ah yes, because nothing says “change” like “unchecked conservatism”
Well I did say they are dumb AF.
Here’s the thing… He said he would bring change. Biden, and Harris after, both said that things would basically stay the same. For a lot of people, that’s an active issue they’re dealing with everyday.
The politicians just don’t understand because they haven’t lived like normal people for decades, if ever given the history and family of many of them.
See, there’s the horrifying possibility that they just did and this is what Americans are.
Eh, forget it. they probably need a minute before reckoning with that one.
That’s the thing … looks like he’ll win the populist vote… You’re not “taking your country back” this is your country…
Not being American, I will need some convincing about why the US doesn’t belong in the same bucket as, say, Hungary or Turkey. If you keep self inflicting the rule of strongmen and their oligarch cronies at some point that’s a core feature.
Sadly, for the next four years, we belong in that bucket.
Honestly at this point y’all should just get the fuck out. Where to? Anywhere honestly. You’ll probably find the third world preferable to a post project 2025 Murica.
Russia’s been having a major brain drain issue as all people with functioning brains either have escaped or want to escape the country. I don’t see why Americans should do any different.
FWIW a candidate the left could vote for instead of someone to vote against would help.
It would.
But I think that ship has sailed.
And honestly it might be the third-worlder-accustomed-to-things-being-uttter-bullshit in me. But I think “Winning back the country” is an unrealistic and foolhardy goal. Everyone who is on the radar for being harmed by Trump should look out for themselves and their own. Which includes “getting the fuck out of the country” if that is what it takes.
Additionally: A significant portion of the country won today. They got exactly what they wanted. And pretending that this neofascism is some kind of external infection is tantamount to covering one’s own ears.
pretending that this neofascism is some kind of external infection is tantamount to covering one’s own ears.
See, I think it’s mixed. You’re absolutely right that people voted for this. At the same time, years of propaganda by monied interests have led us up to this point. Authoritarianism has been low-key popular at least since the 90s (maybe earlier, but the 90s was when I started school, and learned by experience that fascism is how the school system operates.) People are scared to rock the boat against their “leaders,” and given enough time, this is the result.
I wish I had time right now to write more about this, because there is some deep psychological manipulation that’s embedded in the fabric of this country. It doesn’t excuse people’s behaviors, but knowing how and why they operate is crucial to understanding the big picture.
At the same time, years of propaganda by monied interests have led us up to this point
See you’re right but –
– Those monied interests are also coming from within. The wealthy and powerful from America who see this as a way to consolidate and protect their own wealth and power.
Silicon Valley wanted Neofascism. Wall Street wanted Neofascism. Fracking Barons like the Koch Brother(s) wanted Neofascism. Some out in the open, like the afore-mentioned Koch(s) and Elon Musk, but make no mistake, every billionaire who “shuts up about politics” is most likely a Neofascist in private, because this benefits them.
The people in America are heavily propagandised, but that propaganda is funded and developed by and for the benefit of the wealthy within America itself.
Some people lean really hard into the whole “russian influence” thing because it is comforting. And it is entirely possible that there ARE Russian fingers in this pie – Russia does benefit from a weakened America, in any way they CAN weaken it. Heck, China and the Middle Eastern powers do too, so maybe they have fingers in that pie too.
But never forget that it started with wealthy Americans, and not some foreign agent. And if every foreign influence walked away, it would continue without them.
Theoretically, The Revolution™ that lefties like me talk about could change things. Just like theoretically, a peaceful political reform could change things. Theoretically.
But I’m from the third world. Hopelessness is my
bread and butterrice and beans. So I’m entirely accustomed to daydreaming of one day things changing, while expecting elections to change nothing, and knowing for a fact that any attempt at armed fighting would most likely end in a victory for the bad guys (they have the bigger guns).The idea of “things are already fucked, have been since before you were born, if you want to make a difference, look out for yourself and those you CAN help, make a difference in the micro, because The System as a macro thing is outside your reach entirely” is in fact how most people have dealt with things since forever, and we survive.
Pretty sure Trump said we wouldn’t have to worry about voting anymore. It would all be taken care of.
Damn, and europe already has a lot of refugees to deal with :p
This has actually all been a very elaborate “come to Brazil” meme on my part.Jokes aside, given how a lot of our people tend to worship the floor 'Murica walks on, if a bunch of refugees from the US came over, they’d probably be welcomed with open arms. :P
Eat shit.
This post is about recovery, not abandonment. Letting America fall will have global repercussions. Instructing us to give up is not helpful.
This post is about recovery, not abandonment
Recovery from what? Fascism is what your own neighbours chose. This is the system working exactly as intended and pretending it’s not is covering one’s own eyes. There are hundreds of millions of Americans for whom this is a good day. They have the backing of the wealthy and powerful. And their project is to remove any chance of them ever losing power again.
Thinking you’ll stop something like Project 2025 in the ballot box is willful ignorance at this point.
Since OP has already made it clear that “violent uprising” is not on the cards, then the alternative is to get out while they can. Hopefully while helping others do the same. Save themselves and their own. Survive and maybe you can make a difference from the outside.
When Germany went all Nazi in the 30s~40s you know who DID make a difference? Not the political opposition who got slaughtered. And not the people who let the Nazis walk all over them while claiming they were still better because they were “civil”. It was resistance fighters who helped the allies fight and minorities to escape. And people who got out of Germany and then joined the fight on the side of the allies.
Also:
Eat shit.
Don’t threaten me with a good time, gringo <3
I gave up this morning. America gave up on you at birth.
Sending this dude a dm on NZ. I’m sure they need mechanics.
We will take you in NZ.
Wait 2 years, and hopefully put people who will mitigate the damage into the positions listed on your ballot. All you can do now as a law abiding citizen is wait.
I fear that the next election will be more ceremony than democracy once they have finished rigging it. At this point, I expect a third term for Trump - if he lives that long.
He won’t. The goal was to get Vance in all along. He’s a docile pet for Thiel and co to implement their fascist agenda.
Your fear of a 3rd term makes it all the more important to vote in your future elections. As the two term limit is imposed through a constitutional amendment, they’d need to create another constitutional amendment to reverse it. They need 2/3rds of both the house and the senate to agree to even get the ball rolling, as such, it is vital that you do what you can to prevent them from acquiring those numbers to avoid that situation.
If it did happen, I wonder if the democrats would run Obama again.
I don’t think they need a constitutional amendment, just Scotus ruling that it only applies to consecutive terms, for example.
And then 8 years of the President and VP switching places.
It worked for his pal, Putin…
If they attempt to abolish term limits I think we’re actually going to see a civil war.
I would hope so, but americans have proven time and time again that they are spineless.
If Republicans remove term limits, it would be amazing to see Obama instantly get reelected for a third term in 2028.
That being said, the USA may not get another legitimate election (help us).
If it did happen, I wonder if the democrats would run Obama again.
Fat fuck will die inside of 4 years. So, it’ll get worse.
I admire your positivity
They just did. They’ll happily lie in the bed they shat in at first. By the time they realize their mistake, it will be too late.
A cancer metastasizing is the opposite of Americans winning their country back.
They were referring to what the slack jawed morons who voted for trump think
It’ll be when a dem takes control and they’ll blame the fallout on that person. Same as usual.
It’s been “too late” for 'mericans to “win back the country” for a couple of decades at least. I mean, the entire electoral/voting system needs to be redone from the ground up because it’s very non-democratic.
If Trump won the electoral college but not the popular vote I’d say it is.non-Democratic. But he won the popular vote too. So half the country are just self destructive.
California has only counted around half their votes so a popular vote win for Kamala could be a thing.
People don’t vote because they see the system is rigged so the popular vote isn’t a great standard to go by either, it’s a product of the system as well
If you had 100% turnout the popular vote would be very different.
People don’t vote because they see the system is rigged so the popular vote isn’t a great standard to go by either, it’s a product of the system as well
My area is such a strong republican district that my vote is functionally irrelevant aside from the president. Hell, they didn’t even bother with democrat candidates on a local level.
Quite the change from 2016, when he lost the popular vote by almost 3 million. Congrats, 'murica.
There were no good options. And that’s because of the electoral system.
I’m sorry, you’re looking at these results and seeing too little democracy in play?
Yes. The Dems lost this election more than the Reps won it.
And no, it’s not just Harris. It’s the fact they haven’t accomplished anything substantially changing the lives of people for dozens of years, and they fought more against people like Sanders than people like Cheney.
Limp dick DNC shills corpo agenda than pika face when peasants dont stay loyal to “the good team”
Are you drunk? Just because I would understand if you were drunk.
Doesn’t help that you have old hags like Nancy Pelosi refusing to relinquish any power and pass the torch to someone younger. People shouldn’t have to wait for you to die to take the reigns.
The ACA never happened in your mind?
The ACA, which brought US healthcare from an 18th century level to a 19th century one in 2010, was a half measure under Obama, he got reelected for it, he was president for 7 more years after he signed that.
First time voters today were 4 years old when it happened. What else has the Democratic Party been doing? How about the housing crisis? How about inflation? Oh, they got that one 1400 USD stimmy check passed after Trump looted the coffers for corpos big and small.
Look, I’m not saying Harris wasn’t the better, less destructive choice. I’m saying something had had to happen, and people didn’t turn out for a candidate who said the past four years and the way the world is going is good. Not as well as for someone who saw problems and proposed - admittedly monstrous and ineffective - solutions.
Yes. It’s not half of America, it’s half of the voters. Things would change drastically if only the nonvoter voted.
Things would change drastically if only the nonvoter voted.
There is a big fat assumption in there, a similar reason why kamala lost…
If you consider that more people didn’t vote for Trump and he still won, then yes.
They’re the political opposition now. They should do what good opposition work includes. Hold the government accountable, force them to deliver results. Make the people pay attention and realize if their bills become less or more expensive. And I’d say re-consider life-choices. And make some fundamental changes. Maybe start a new political party if the Democrats are beyond hope.
THIS is the moment where everyone should be creating 3rd party candidates and going to the streets to spread awareness for the next election.
Not 6 months before the election with trump as a possibility. Get out there and promote 3rd party now, when people are pissed at Democrats for throwing it all away for Israel and people are pissed the trump won.
Do you really think they lost over their stance on Israel/Palestina? Not saying it doesn’t matter. But I feel if you see how many votes republicans got, that a lot of (perceived) domestic issues played a very big role.
IMO third party is not viable unless we change our voting system and people keep voting out the progressive reform party so fat chance.
Dnc komissars are brain dead… Another bullshit campaign they botched… 2016 vibes failed again…
Either way, these regime whores are useless.
3p is the only way for a chance of any fucking reform.
Until then beatings will continue…
you organize to pressure the burgeoise, as always, because they are the ones funding every winning political candidate.
except for americans fascism seem to be tolerable but god forbid you learn from marxism and socialism.
