Being a deck owner not over obsessed in the latest tripe A games.
I left Windows ~2-3 years ago since I got tired of having to keep up with ways to disable the MS account requirements or disable the ads every time there is a major version upgrade on a platform I use every day.
Just upgrade yall are so dramatic for no reason at all. If 11 is that bad just switch to Linux.
People might get a little emotional about it but I bounce between Linux Mint, windows 10, and windows 11 and honestly I totally agree that windows 11 is trash. When my windows 10 computer reaches it’s limit, I might try to figure out how to run games on Linux/proton or whatever that is.
IIRC W11 share is barely near W10 and they are already forcing it out and crapton of perfectly usable hardware, if it is not planned obsolescence i don’t know what it is!? Fuck microsoft!
I want to point out, planned obsolescence only really applies to their surface offerings.
My laptop still works perfectly well so if Microsoft don’t want to support it any more then I’ll bung Linux on it. I’ve already got my Mint stick ready, just need to get round to it.
Nice! I was lucky to have extra drives when I switched to Linux on my PC, haven’t done it on a laptop yet. Do you just back up all your data to an external SSD/HD beforehand or go the partition route?
Bought my wife a framework laptop, slapped fedora on it and have been helping her make the switch. So far so good other than Obsidian not working the same as OneNote.
It’s not like Windows 10 will magically stop booting or something…
Running an EoL operating system is surely what you want to do with your personal dat-
Aaaaaaand it’s been compromised
I’m pretty sure all personal data leaks to me and my friends and family have nothing to do with personal EOL OS on personal PCs/laptops.
My Dad, ran Windows 7 (yes, 7) until he passed last year, almost 80. We had his credit locked down, we had antivirus running, we kept the browsers up to date, and he was very good about not clicking weird links or calling fake support numbers.
His biggest data breach (and ours too)? Was from myChart a couple years ago, he got a letter that his data was part of the big hack, yada yada yada free credit reporting - so sorry. If you don’t know, myChart is like The Main medical everything portal in the US at least for most doctors and hospital systems. So all your test results, making appointments, sending messages, requesting Rx refills, all through myChart’s website. The hospitals and doctors using MyChart can see pretty much everything in your myChart health record (some exceptions)
So using super secure OS on your personal computer means nothing when you are part of a hundreds of millions data dump from someone hacking into that. Not having an account just means you don’t have access to your own records, they are still part of the system.
But Yes, I was in the process of getting Dad an upgrade to a flavor of Linux that would be the closest to what he was used to. And the only reason was because browser support was coming to EOL for Windows 7. He really didn’t want to change or lose his solitaire games and he deserved a stress-free life to play his damn games like he wanted.
THAT SAID - if businesses are using EOL OS and getting hacked - they definitely need to do whatever they need to do and protect their customer data. But EOL OS for an average person checking email, making doctor’s appointments, checking headlines, and playing solitaire while streaming music certainly doesn’t call for a need to panic.
IF you are a power user doing sometimes sketch things (according to Apple/MS anyway) probably switch to Linux sooner than later.
We have computers running Linux, Windows 10 (one of which was on 8.1 until a year ago), and Windows 11 in our house. The one on 11 is being tested basically, and will probably be reinstalled with Linux. But we are trying to give it a shot.
Your dad probably got lucky, and your router’s firewall probably did a lot of the heavy lifting. If you were to connect a win 2000/XP computer to the internet today without a firewall between, it would be compromised in minutes (there are loads of videos of people demoing this).
While I don’t have proof that 7 would be the same, I strongly suspect it would be the same. 10 will get there soon too. Firewalls will stop most of the low hanging fruit, but an application that bridges connections through the firewall are that much more vulnerable to exploitations that won’t be integrated by your running kernel.
It’s windows users were talking about here, data security is not exactly top of mind. But maybe many of them are about to find out it should be…
Isn’t that exactly what’s happening as soon as you install win11?
To be fair, plenty of telemetry is still being sent by Microsoft in Windows 10. It’s not as bad as 11 though.
Security wise 11 is better
Depends on how you define security.
Is win11 more cryptographically secure, absolutely.
Does that matter if you don’t trust the holder of the keys (the Microsoft keys stored in the tpm) not really.
implementing a more secure platform doesn’t mean much if the only way you are doing it is by handing over control to a third party.
Would you trust a better lock on your front door if it meant a proven bad actor was the one who could unlock it?
If the EU is allowed to employ guards in MS’s buildings and to roll their own secured version of Windows, I wouldn’t mind sticking to Windows 11 EU. On the other paw, if DOGE is given access to Microsoft, I shall flee to Linux. Hopefully, SteamOS Desktop will be a thing if the latter happens.
Right?
I never understand why people are so obsessed with not getting updates. They usually just break everything and bloat the OS.
“But my security!” OS updates are going to protect you from 99% of the bad actors out there. They do nothing against social engineering. They don’t make you use strong passwords. Most of the security flaws OS updates are addressing are the kinda of attacks that only state actors or organized crime rings have the resources and abilities to exploit.
Governments? Heck yeah they need to be concerned. Large enterprises? Definitely. Small businesses? Eh it’s probably for the best to protect your livelihood even if you aren’t the juiciest target. But for an individual using their PC for gaming, social media, streaming content, online shopping, etc… The cost-benefit analysis is different.
It’s not different from physical security. Theres a reason you don’t need to go through TSA to get on a bus.
For now yes but when a zero day is found 1 guy could literally take down every single 10 install and Microsoft won’t be bothered to fix it
I mean… That could happen to Windows11 and be almost as catastrophic even if Microsoft does eventually fix it.
The problem is that as soon as a security issue is found on windows 10 it won’t be fixed, it is perpetual. In Windows 11 it will probably be fixed before you even know it exists.
You seem awfully optimistic about Microsoft’s response time lol.
How many people are out there today with broken locks on their doors or windows? How many stores do you think close every night with the minimum wage worker forgetting to lock up properly? How many people out their use incredibly weak passwords, share their credentials with others, or leave everything on post-it notes?
Security is a cost-benefit analysis. Depending on what exactly this hypothetical exploit requires I might very well be comfortable running Windows 10 anyways. The vast majority of security exploits require physical access to the machine- we only hear about the remote ones more often because they are scarier.
It might be a remote exploit or it might not. An OS is not just a program that runs in the background, if it is critically important.
These kind of exploiters don’t tend to attack you in particular, they have botnets scanning the web for any compromised machine.
Running windows 10 is fine today, might not be fine after EOL. It is irresponsible to shrug it off and not even consider the alternatives out there, including windows 11.
That’s where the “analysis” part of “cost-benefit analysis” comes in and it doesn’t make sense to generalize like you seem to want to.
Is it really that much more responsible to run Windows 11? You seem to have a LOT of faith in Microsoft to keep you safe. There’s plenty of reasons to not switch to Windows 11.
I also use Linux on some machines. But I can also see why there are reasons why one distro or another, or even Linux in general, may not be the right call for some people.
Didn’t they get rid of some 11 requirements? Won’t most regular people just do the upgrade to 11?
They didn’t get rid of it, they’re allowing you to upgrade to 11 and calling it unsupported. Just like 10 is unsupported.
With Win 11, you still get the security updates though right?
No way I’m switching to Linux yet, multi monitors support with mixed resolutions and vrr on nvidia still kinda sucks. As soon as someone makes that work I’ll try it out on a separate partition. Buy last time I tried my other monitors had all kinds of issues when I had games open with gysnc
Most people won’t budge. It doesn’t matter if Win10 is unsupported or isn’t getting a security update, I reckon a solid 40 of 43% will just stay on it until programs they use stop working.
Yep, I feel like people overestimate how much anyone cares about official support or security patches or whatever. People will assume it’s fine until they’re either forced out or something goes horribly wrong.
Regular folks will most likely let it be if possible, until it’s time for a new PC anyway.
My brother in law was still using windows 7 and it had never occurred to him that this might be a security risk. Normal people don’t care.
Basically my plan until I can scrounge enough money up for a new computer. My current one literally won’t let me upgrade due to some component/driver it lacks.
It’ll let you upgrade to Linux. It doesn’t play those stupid games with you like MS does.
You can pay to keep getting windows security updates and prolong the upgrade even further.
“you can pay us, and we won’t break your legs for a while longer” -ms
W10 IoT is a thing, and will get updates for a few more years, no mafia shakedown required.
Definitely you should look into Linux, it’s really gotten quite good. Especially if you don’t need games with anti cheat.
But if you just want to use Windows 11, it’s super duper easy. Just Google “download Windows 11 iso” and grab the iso file from Microsoft website.
Then download Rufus.
Then pop in a thumb drive that’s at least 8gb. Open Rufus, select your thumb drive and the iso, then choose the option to remove windows requirements, then click start.
Backup your files on Windows 10, save them somewhere. Then pop in the thumb drive and install windows 11 fresh.
The requirements aren’t actually required. Win 11 runs fine on all sorts of hardware. Support stops at 8th Gen Intel, but I’ve installed it on 5th Gen. My work laptop is 2nd or 3rd Gen. It’s fine 🤷♂️
Technically less secure? Yeah, in some ways. But it’s miles ahead of running unpatched windows 10 after September.
Yep. I’m embarrassed to admit it, but valve dropping support for windows 7 was what made me switch to linux. Until the computer stops working for the average user, they won’t change.
Windows 10 ltsc massgrave.dev
The more people hop onto Linux the faster and better funded support for Linux development becomes. If you’re a single player gamer or play Valve multiplayer games primarily, make the jump to Linux. Get on Mint, get on Fedora, Ubuntu, etc and get off Microsoft’s shitboat. You already took off from Reddit. Wean off all these other money/data leeches
Can Linux run Valorant?
No Kernel level anti cheat will ever work on linux. But probably Windows will disable the possibillity to manipulate on kernel level either in the future.
But probably Windows will disable the possibillity to manipulate on kernel level either in the future.
Sort of, right?
We know Windows will continue cracking down on kernel module adds, since the Crowd strike disaster.
But I figure most anti-cheat will just shift to non-kernel and keep working.
Of course, at that point most anti-cheat of will then work under Proton, on Linux, too.
Which was maybe your point.
Okay, I don’t think I added anything for you, but I’ll leave this in case it helps someone reading along with us.
Watching you reason this out was fun
Only semi-related: Why do they always show pictures of Gates when he hasn’t been involved in MS in a long time? Why never Satya Nadella?
EDIT: Also, yes, related to the actual question already living Linux full time and when October rolls around probably gonna back up everything from the Windows side of my dual-boot and wipe the 1TB NVMe Windows is on to use as storage.
Because he set the general, evil directions for MS. Like keeping users uninformed and locked in, smearing the competition, sabotaging open standards, taking your control over your hardware and data away from users, etc. All happened during evil Bill’s reign.
Not to mention the many deals with hardware manufacturers in order to avoid competing OSs to have any chance. They managed to kill BeOS and dominate the Japanese market in the 90s
I was thinking the same thing. He will just forever be known as the guy. Maybe it will change once he dies?
Maybe, he is indeed looking hella rough in this photo.
Seems he’s using the same orange tan as the other orange guy haha
I don’t think so. Gates’ shoes are big ones.
You’re right, it’s really hard to fill the shoes of someone who abuses their power and position to try to hook up with women.
Under his watch they did form the anti-opensource and EEE mantra
Personally, I think this picture of Steve Balmer is so much more iconic and should be used for every single article about Microsoft or Windows:
It’s weird how MS’s putting developers first became a joke. Back in the 80’s, companies like HP and IBM had open warehouses with coders at desks lined up like factory workers. MS was the first big company to give a private office to every programmer.
The approach isn’t what became a joke, it was the absolutely unhinged way in which it was presented in that famous Ballmer stage appearance.
I’d take that any day over the unhinged AI focus from all these companies now or Google’s awful documentation from the past few years.
Oh sure, it was crazy. But the sentiment behind it was good. It’s like how Howard Dean got dunked on for his scream.
Why need upgrade at all? I’ve never needed “support” before
The “support” most importantly includes security updates. You better bet every hacking group has been working at finding fresh zero days for Windows 10 and is stockpiling them to start hammering any PCs that can’t be upgraded this October
I hope this is a sarcastic joke.
If it’s not, support means updates. More importantly security updates.
There is a reason you don’t put a windows XP machine on the internet.
XP might actually be somewhat safe to connect by now. Most of the viruses and worms have updated past it by now.
Noooooo. There was an article in the last 6 months about someone connecting a windows xp to the internet just to see what happened, and within 10 minutes it had been scanned and infected. They repeated the experiment several times.
It’s child’s play (like, literally script kiddie level) to run automated scans and if a vulnerability, like a really old operating system, is found to then attack it.
Well, security through obscurity never really did work
I spent a couple hours trying to get Baldur’s Gate 3 running on Linux. It was rough but I got it to run at 1440 but the latency made it sort of unplayable. It runs great in Windows 10 at 4k with the default settings. I have some other windows-only software so I guess I’m going to “upgrade” all my computers that are able to do so but I don’t feel good about it. All my computers dual boot windows/linux, I would love to be linux-only.
Edit: lots of people are saying theirs runs smoothly, I’m going to have to do further testing. Thanks for the input!
Already did and it’s glorious! Steam works beautifully and the only final thing that I’m missing is Adobe products.
I recommend, if you want to try Linux, that you try out the ‘Debian’ distribution, and use the ‘KDE Plasma’ desktop environment. It makes for a very Windows-like experience and really assisted me with the transition between OSs.
I went with Mint but I’m thinking about KDE (or maybe KDE flavored Arch? Idk I’m new) on my second computer. Pretty painless?
I honestly think mint is an outdated suggestion for beginners, I think immutability is extremely important for someone who is just starting out, as well as starting on KDE since it’s by far the most developed DE that isn’t gnome and their… design decisions are unfortunate for people coming from windows.
I don’t think we should be recommending mint to beginners anymore, if mint makes an immutable, up to date KDE distro, that’ll change, but until then, I think bazzite is objectively a better starting place for beginners.
The mere fact that it generates a new system for you on update and lets you switch between and rollback automatically is enough for me to say it’s better, but it also has more up to date software, and tons of guides (fedora is one of the most popular distros, and bazzite is essentially identical except with some QoL upgrades).
How common is the story of “I was new to linux and completely broke it”? that’s not a good user experience for someone who’s just starting, it’s intimidating, scary, and I just don’t think it’s the best in the modern era. There’s something to be said about learning from these mistakes, but bazzite essentially makes these mistakes impossible.
Furthermore because of the way bazzite works, package management is completely graphical and requires essentially no intervention on the users part, flathub and immutability pair excellently for this reason.
Cinnamon (the default mint environment) doesn’t and won’t support HDR, the security/performance improvements from wayland, mixed refresh rate displays, mixed DPI displays, fractional scaling, and many other things for a very very long time if at all. I don’t understand the usecase for cinnamon tbh, xfce is great if you need performance but don’t want to make major sacrifices, lmde is great if you need A LOT of performance, cinnamon isn’t particularly performant and just a strictly worse version of kde in my eyes from the perspective of a beginner, anyway.
I have 15 years of linux experience and am willing to infinitely troubleshoot if you add me on matrix.
I went to Manjaro (Arch) with KDE from Mint about 5 months ago, and it’s been nearly flawless, allowed me to easily install a real time processing kernel for audio production, and it’s run every game I’ve thrown at it performs better than Winblows.
Yeah Manjaro + KDE is kinda what I was thinking, thanks!
Manjaro is legitimately a terrible choice, https://github.com/arindas/manjarno
I used to give manjaro to a lot of people because i was an arch user and supported a bunch of linux users, it was a massive mistake, arch is just a strictly better version of manjaro, the things manjaro claims to do it doesn’t do well because it’s just kind of hacked onto arch. Let me give you an example of something stupid that manjaro does:
normally, in linux, all packages are upgraded centrally, however, manjaro has decided to make an exception for the kernel, and now the kernel is versioned, and each version upgrades separately… this can result in you being stuck with an ancient kernel. I had to go into peoples computers, boot into a console, manually swap out the kernel, and put on the latest one, because the updater wouldn’t update due to the newest drivers being incompatible with the old kernel.
This happened enough times, that and the concerns raised in manjarno make me think it really isn’t for anyone. The team is laughably incompetent (they can’t even get their certs sorted out? really?) and you don’t want an incompetent team running your desktop.
If you’re enough of an expert to fix these things… just use arch, it’s strictly better. If you don’t know what you’re doing, an arch based distro is a terrible choice and you should go with bazzite.
I’m willing to troubleshoot infinitely over matrix for free and have 15 years of experience, feel free to message me!
Very helpful, thank you!
Manjaro is legitimately a terrible choice and should not be recommended, https://github.com/arindas/manjarno
If it works for you, that’s great, but you’re lucky so far and it’s a ticking timebomb.
I used to give manjaro to a lot of people because i was an arch user and supported a bunch of linux users, it was a massive mistake, arch is just a strictly better version of manjaro, the things manjaro claims to do it doesn’t do well because it’s just kind of hacked onto arch. Let me give you an example of something stupid that manjaro does:
normally, in linux, all packages are upgraded centrally, however, manjaro has decided to make an exception for the kernel, and now the kernel is versioned, and each version upgrades separately… this can result in you being stuck with an ancient kernel. I had to go into peoples computers, boot into a console, manually swap out the kernel, and put on the latest one, because the updater wouldn’t update due to the newest drivers being incompatible with the old kernel.
This happened enough times, that and the concerns raised in manjarno make me think it really isn’t for anyone. The team is laughably incompetent (they can’t even get their certs sorted out? really?) and you don’t want an incompetent team running your desktop.
If you’re enough of an expert to fix these things… just use arch, it’s strictly better. If you don’t know what you’re doing, an arch based distro is a terrible choice and you should go with bazzite.
and the only final thing that I’m missing is Adobe products.
I miss Affinity Designer! Bought a license and I like it but no linux port 🙄
I can’t get used Inkscape, it’s so different and confusing for me
Have you ever seen how to draw a circle in GIMP?
Krita > Gimp
Krita and GIMP are tools for different use cases.
for newcomers, maybe this is the best combo. Debian stable with KDE Plasma.
Debian is not a good choice for beginners. It’s extremely bare bones compared to Ubuntu or Mint.
Drivers on Debian stable are also heavily outdated
Drivers being outdated is not a big deal, unless you use recent hardware, then it might make sense to make a jump to current testing release (trixie), or just stay on testing indefinitely.
Also it being “barebones” is a good thing in my eyes, since I can configure it how I want.
It’s definitely a good thing if you’re interested and knowledgeable enough to build what you want. I was just arguing it’s not the best choice for a casual user because a lot things they’ll want won’t work out of the box.
Even updating to the next stable Debian version requires editing system files and running the command line.
Drivers can matter quite a bit if for example you’re on an Nvidia card and the Debian drivers are 2 years old. It happened to me and caused dlss to not work in some games. And with Nvidia you can’t just move to testing, you need to backport the driversc and that’s quite involved.
I run a Debian server and it’s amazing for that.
I definitely agree with most of the points but I don’t get what do you mean that you can’t move to testing, because that’s what I literally did recently by upgrading from bookworm to trixie with no issues whatsoever and I have Nvidia card, although older one (GTX 1060 3GB).
Unless you’re using NVIDIA. Didn’t work out of the box for me and required a couple hours of fiddling. Mint worked seamlessly.
PopOS (scroll down to the “Pop_OS with Nvidia” link).
It is tailored for Nvidia cards, is Debian(Ubuntu) based, & super friendly for new users.
EDIT: Here’s a link to the 24.04 release that provides only the Cosmic desktop environment (no X11, no gnome or kde). This is what I use, but it’s in alpha so user beware.
I completely disagree. Debian is not beginner-friendly. Go with Bazzite if your focus is gaming.
It is a gaming-focused distribution. It’s also an “atomic” distribution, which basically means it’s really hard to break it. It’s more like Android or IOS where the OS and base system are managed by someone else. They’re read-only so you can’t accidentally break them.
For example, instead of trying to manage your own video card drivers, they come packaged with the base system image, and they’re tested to make sure they work with all the other base components.
I’ve been using Linux since the 1990s, so I’ve run my share of distributions: Slackware, RedHat, Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu, etc. Even for someone experienced, atomic distributions are great. But, for a newcomer they’re so much better.
How does Bazzite fare when I want to do something a bit different. Install docker, Python, PHP, sqlite, etc. I’d normally just install them, but does this work for Bazzite and other atomic/immutable distros?
So, there are multiple ways of installing things. For GUI apps the standard way is flatpaks. Some non-GUI things are installed that way, but it’s less common.
For CLI apps, homebrew is installed by default and it’s recommended as a way to install CLI things.
The method I like for apps that have a lot of interdependencies is to use a distrobox. If you want a development environment where multiple apps all talk to each-other, you can isolate them on their own distrobox and install them however you like there.
I currently have a distrobox running ubuntu that I use for a kubernetes project. In that distrobox I install anything I need with apt, or sometimes from source. Within that kubernetes project I use mise-en-place to manage tools just for that particular sub-project. What I like about doing things this way is that when I’m working on that project I have all the tools I need, and don’t have to worry about the tools for other projects. My base bazzite image is basically unchanged, but my k8s project is highly customized.
If you really want to, you can still install RPMs as overlays to the base system, it’s just not recommended because that slows down upgrades.
More details here:
Awesome, thanks for the explanation! I’d been put off Bazzite and other immutable distros because I had seen threads saying you basically needed flatpak for everything, but it sounds like that’s not true.
I don’t need a project at the moment but I will give this a go once I am ready for one!
Yeah, I only use flatpak for GUI apps that don’t need any special handling. To be fair, that’s a decent number of the things I use most often: Firefox, Thunderbird, Signal, Kodi, Discord, Gimp, VLC. I think it’s also how I installed some themes for KDE / Plasma.
Console stuff I’ve either done in a distrobox using the conventions of that OS (apt for the Ubuntu one, DNF for the Fedora one), or I’ve used homebrew. But, I haven’t used too much homebrew because I want my “normal” console to be as unchanged as possible.
There are a few things I’ve used distrobox-export to make available outside the distrobox.
It took me a little while to understand how you’re supposed to think about the system, but now that I think I get it, I really like it. My one frustration is that there’s an nVidia driver bug that’s affecting me, and nVidia has been unable to fix it for a few months. I think I’d be in exactly the same situation with a traditional distro. The difference is that if they ever fix it, I’ll have to wait a couple of weeks until the fix makes it to the Bazzite stable build. I suppose I could switch to Bazzite testing and get it within days of it being fixed instead of weeks. Apparently just use a “rebase” command and reboot. But, I’m hesitant to do that because other than the nVidia driver, everything’s so stable.
Lucky for me I don’t have any Nvidia so things sail a bit smoother.
Thanks for all the advice 🙂
In what world is a Debian base not beginner friendly my fiancé that could barely use windows is using it just fine
Has your fiancé had to update drivers? Has he had to upgrade to a new release? Has he had to figure out how to install a version of something that isn’t in the Debian stable repositories?
If the only application your fiancé uses is Firefox, then he might go a long time before having any kind of problem. It all depends on how he uses it.
It’s basically a Chromebook for her
If it’s a her, you mean fiancée, fiancé is used only for men. And, it’s basically a chromebook in how she uses it. But, chromebooks are designed so that you never have to do any system administration. You never have to upgrade drivers or figure out how to get to the next release.
She probably hasn’t had to deal with that yet, but eventually the system will have to be updated. Over time, cruft piles up and makes it harder and harder to upgrade and manage. Atomic distributions are designed to be much more like chromebooks. Someone else manages the upgrades and the tricky choices, and then you just install their base image.
Autocorrect on my phone always chooses fiancé for some damn reason but I showed her how to update when I set it up for her and she’s been keeping up with it checking once a week and she’s had a couple questions I’ve had to answer but less then when she was just trying to do basic things on windows so it’s been great for me
The thing with autocorrect is that you don’t have to accept the correction.
