gasp, they won’t let him visit the guy that went through the death camp?
gasp
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not following every nuance about the deportations - but can someone point me in the direction to understand why El Salvador? Why there?
The headlines and what is written in between them is why.
It’s the government rhetorically asking “Do you wanna see a magic trick?”
Because Trump is having the US pay them a lot of money to take these prisoners.
In fascism 2.0 the same tactics that have worked for hyper capitalist tax havens are now working for death camps
The president of El Salvador is a pure blooded MAGAt, idolizes Trump and will absolutely do anything for him
Trump and Bukele are ideologically alike. Bukele wants more funding for his prison, which the US is providing. The prison is basically a black-site with journalists given very limited and controlled access. For all I know, it could be a deathcamp; they do use forced labor, so it is at least a slave camp. Also, they never release anyone from there, which further raises the suspicion of it being a death camp.
They’re not deportations because the people being sent there are not from there.
Bukele, the Salvadorian ruler, is a fellow authoritarian, and told Marco Rubio he would disappear whoever they wanted for cash.
Guantanamo Bay is US territory, and our government would be responsible for what happens to these people, but by sending them to a cooperative 3rd party country, Trump and company have declared their hands clean of what happens to anyone sent there after that, and as they are out of US territory, we have no means to ever get any of them back.
They are now talking about sending people born in the US there if they are “bad enough.”
Here is a pretty short article that gives you some more specifics if you want.
If you’ve ever spoken out against the government in writing/online, are part of a labor union, or any kind of minority or LGBT or care about anyone that is, you should get up to speed on this quickly.
Aw. I did not realize Bukele was also authoritarian. That was the missing part.
Thanks!
Also the people being sent there are innocent, likely by any reasonable definition, but certainly by the definition of our Constitution.
Glad to help!
The cruelty is the point. I know you’re probably used to seeing that in some kind of melodramatic context, but that’s actually what it is in this case. The government’s narrative is that the people that they’re grabbing are all insane and violent gang members and that they all deserve life in the harshest conditions possible- conditions that, I presume, are not possible under the already barely enforced eighth amendment. The Trump administration already tested those waters in Trump I with refusing to give detainees such luxuries as beds, blankets, soap, toilet paper, and lights that turn off at night, and got shut down; if they send them to El Salvador, there is no constitution (or pretense thereof) to step in and say “no, you can’t do that”. They’ve said repeatedly and out loud that the terror is the point.
Here’s the big, huge, glowing hot problem that remains, even with news media now reporting that Kilmar’s wife sought a restraining order or something in 2021:
A bunch of these folks were NEVER charged with a crime. The government never had to prove their case to a jury, never got a sentence from a judge, and never even attempted to say what crime these folks committed. They just scooped them up and sent them to a life term in supermax for ??? That’s bad, like really, really, really bad. This puts us squarely in dictatorship territory, and let me be totally unambiguous here: when the government can arbitrarily sentence people to life in prison without even claiming a crime or trying the case before a jury, that is a dictatorship. We are living, right now, in this moment, in a dictatorship. If they can do it to them, they can do it to you-- and they will. In fact, they’re currently discussing avenues for stripping citizenship from US citizens so they can “deport” them to El Salvador, and they’ve confirmed to the press that they’re having those discussions. So, yes, they’re coming for you, too, just not quite yet.
P.S. if you think you’re safe because you’re not political, that doesn’t matter, because they’re political, and they think that sending you to die in an El Salvadorian prison for being gay/atheist/furry/said anything bad about Trump ever/whatever is just dandy.
El Salvador was once rampant with violent criminal gangs, with a murder rate greater than 1 in 1000. Bukele took power on the promise of restoring peace in El Salvador. He was elected, and started rounding up gang members and imprisoning them without trial and based on their tattoos and social circles. The cops didn’t care if the prisoner had comitted or even accused of a crime, if they had an MS-13 tattoo, right to jail.
San Salvador made a deal with the US to build a megaprison called CECOT. US provided some funding and contractors, El Salvador funded the rest under a government legislation that was forced througn parliament at gunpoint when Bukele marched special forces into Parliament twice to get the bill passed.
CECOT was set up as a maximum security prison, with security outsorced to foreign guards. It has four cell blocks, eith 16 cells each, and each cell holds up to 250 prisoners.
All known gang members were moved there. Guards have rifles with live rounds and will kill on sight any prisoner trying to escape, resist guards, or damage prison property. The prison regimen is 23.5hrs in cell, 0.5hrs outside of the cell for exercise or prayer. Prisoners have no books, bedsheets, mattresses, or any type of item or luxury except pants, socks, underwear, and a shirt.
Prisoners have no trial date, parole period, or chance of release. There is a ‘hole’ for prisoners who cause trouble, which is a bare concrete room, a hole in one corner, and a 100mm hole that lets in light in the daytime, otherwise its pitch black. Prisoners can be sent to the hole for up to 30 days.
The prison funding deal was made with the US in exchange for the US deporting, no questions asked, any MS-13 gang member or other salvadoran illegal immigrant and having them sent straigt to CECOT so there is no possibility that they will return to the US.
Bukele is resisting the natural impetus to check this US citizens status and, if found to be innocent, release him back to the US because this is in direct contradiction to the deal made with the US, that prisoners in CECOT never get to come back to the US. I’ts also in contravention of the CECOT policy to determine if the man is innocent or guilty, because most of the prisoners in CECOT didn’t, and won’t get a trial. Imprisoning innnocent people by their association with violent criminals, if even by familial connection or happnestance, is part of the radically anti-crime ethos of CECOT - Nobody gets due process because it would take too long, gum up the judicial system, and result in MS13 running rampant in El Salvador while the LEO tries to play whackamole.
CECOT is an extreme response to an existential problem that El Salvador faced, and it achieved amazing results in terms of crime and violence reduction and a return to social stability and functional society.
CECOT is a real-world trolley problem. How many innocent people are you willing to lock up amongst the gang members to prevent the murder of innocents out in the real world, including the civilian losses due to government Vs gang warfare if El Salvador falls entirely into an ungovernable lawless warlord-run country like Somalia?
Without due process and unchecked power, Bukele’s regime are the new gangsters. You haven’t solved anything.
Next are the journalists and activists that will end up there.
He definitely has. A few years ago, San Salvador was known as the murder capital of the world, but nowadays it’s one of the safest places to live.
Maybe the murder/crime rate has technically gone down, but the prospect of getting thrown in a literal dungeon without trial for having a tattoo, being mistaken for someone else, or doing some thing the government decided they didn’t like that week, doesn’t sound safe, even if statistically so.
By that definition, the DPRK is “safe” because you’re unlikely to get randomly mugged or something while you’re there. But God have mercy on a tourist who tries to bring home a piece of paper from a hotel room.
Murder rate by ms13 down, murdercamp innocent civilians WAAAAYYYYY up. That other user is eating the fascist propaganda like candy.
Ah yeah, I’m sure lack of due process in an authoritarian regime leaves freedom of speech and accurate reporting of power abuse from the state completely unaffected.
Fighting violence with violence.
Considering all the stuff you’ve written, the let’s say philosophical and ambivalent conclusion there feels inappropriate. A society that puts random innocent people without trial into a death camp is not stable. It all comes off as if the system just restructured the violence (who does it to who and by what means), rather than being on the path of eliminating it…
But it’s an enlightening and valuable comment anyway, thank you. Do you know when was the deal with US made? I can’t find it on Wikipedia…
While I knew some of this, I will happily say I did not know it all. Thank you for taking the time to do this level of info dump.
Sadly, I don’t think he’s ever going to be seen again, I hope against hope that I am wrong, but that he is no longer alive is the only reason I can think of that would make them not only refuse to allow anyone to visit, but deny him passage home.
If that is the only reason you can think of, you need to work on your creativity. Lol
Him being dead wouldn’t be the only reason. If he’s allowed back to the U.S. he’d be subject to our laws about treatment of prisoners and there’s a good chance he would get word out about how bad it is in that south American concentration camp. They know they can’t let that happen.
Central America, and technically North America since it’s north of Columbia.
I always forget about central America. Also I suck at geography, I have it stuck in my head that anything south of Mexico is south America.
Thanks for the correction.
Dude is saying he can’t be expected to smuggle him back into the u.s.
He didn’t have any complaints smuggling him into El Salvador.
They probably executed these people
I bet he’s in this pile
My guess is they are already dead
Because he’s probably dead or at least has had something happen to him they don’t want getting out
There are plenty of other wrongly imprisoned people down there that the senator could be given an access to. They’re not all dead yet I’m hoping.
Yeah but to give some form of access to them, they’d need to actually know who’s dead and who isn’t. Given the overcrowded state of it, and the US’s lack of treating people as human, they may have no idea who’s still alive.
When/if the judge starts arresting people involving, the charges need to be for murder. If they can prove that he’s alive, the charges can be lowered to abduction and attempted murder, plus everything. Throw the fucking book at them, and find a way to make it not federal, pardonable charges.
While I agree, who is going to do the prosecution? The DOJ is compromised.
If it’s civil, the DOJ can eat a bag of dicks.
I swear I read that a judge can appoint an independent prosecutor. Can’t remember where though.
The judge stated that if the DoJ didn’t prosecute he would assign a special prosecutor.
He’s not fucking around.
He is fucking around. You know what’s going to come of this? This judge is going to be discredited and impeached, or he will be overseeing traffic court in Fargo.
You may want to quit drinking that Mike Johnson flavor-ade, because the fascists don’t have the Senate votes to do a damn thing.
Doesn’t take a Senate majority to send a judge to Cecot
Yeah they’re just spending all their time confirming Trump’s cronies. Great job from them.
Murder, Human trafficking, contempt of court, kidnapping… long list,
Whose going to arrest them?
US courts rarely deputize militias and even if they do the courts don’t run prisons or holding cells.
Without the consent of the executive the judicial has no power to arrest.
Bounty hunters. I think we’re at that point.
Did anyone actually think they’d let him see anything? Why would they.
I’m not naive enough to think he’s still alive but that’s beside the point.
I think he is still alive. Bukele made agreements with the leaders of all the major gangs in El Salvador to get them to reduce violent crime. In exchange he gave some money and concessions as to how prisoners would be treated. If it comes out that prisoners are dying in CECOT, the gangs are going to treat that as Bukele breaking their agreement and violent crime will shoot up.
Even if he’s still alive, though, there’s a 0% chance he, or anyone else Trump sends there, will ever come out of CECOT while Bukele or Trump is still in power. It would completely undermine so much about their regimes at this point. They are using CECOT as the ever present existential threat against opposition. It’s supposed to be a black hole people go into and never leave. They can’t let anyone out ever or it proves that people can get out. They don’t want anyone to believe that is possible. They can’t let anyone believe that is possible or it’ll breed massive opposition in both countries.
Bukele made agreements with the leaders of all the major gangs in El Salvador to get them to reduce violent crime. In exchange he gave some money and concessions as to how prisoners would be treated. If it comes out that prisoners are dying in CECOT, the gangs are going to treat that as Bukele breaking their agreement and violent crime will shoot up.
This agreement makes no sense. Nobody ever leaves CECOT alive so what are these gangs supposedly gaining by agreeing to this?
I didn’t make the agreement. It’s been widely reported on.
The US treasury said that an investigation into government officials and gang leaders revealed the secret negotiations. Luna [chief of the Salvadoran penal system and vice-minister of justice and public security] and Marroquin [chairman of the Social Fabric Reconstruction Unit] allegedly “led, facilitated and organized a number of secret meetings involving incarcerated gang leaders, in which known gang members were allowed to enter the prison facilities and meet with senior gang leadership”.
In addition to financial benefits for the gang members, incarcerated leaders received special treatment in the prisons, including access to mobile phones and sex workers. It said Luna also negotiated support from MS-13 and Barrio 18 gangs for Bukele’s national quarantine during the Covid-19 pandemic.
It sounds like the gang leaders who negotiated with Bukele’s regime are incarcerated themselves. And it’s not just prisoners in CECOT who are getting better conditions. It’s incarcerated gang members all over the country.
That quote is sparkly different from your summary. It states that gang leaders get special privileges like prostitutes and the ability to meet with their underlings in order to continue running the gang, along with government funding for the gang. What it doesn’t say is that conditions for rank and file prisoners have improved, nor does it state that prisoner conditions have improved nationwide. The quote actually makes sense why they would agree to this, but your assertions here don’t.
Do you really think some MS-13 gang leader is going to give up his only access to running the gang, cash payments from the government, and a steady stream of prostitutes because some prisoner from the US is being mistreated or killed? I find that pretty far-fetched.
This really reeks of disinformation in order to trick people into thinking things aren’t so bad in CECOT and complacency in that there’s some sort of safety valve that will automatically keep things from deteriorating into a straight up Nazi concentration camp.
No, I think that proving one guy in CECOT has died brings into question the treatment of everyone else in CECOT, including gang members the leaders of the gang do care about.
Those gang leaders have direct and unmonitored access to the outside world so why would anyone need to question their treatment when they have the ability to tell everyone exactly how they are being treated? Again, why would they give two shits about how some dudes from the US are being treated when they’re the ones enjoying all the privileges?
The leaders are only leaders because the unincarcerated members of the gangs listen to them and do what they say. They only do that because they believe the gang leaders have power and influence. Part of that, now, is protection for gang members who get locked up. How long do you think those leaders are going to remain leaders when everyone knows they made a deal with Bukele that Bukele isn’t living up to? Not long.
Nobody ever leaves CECOT alive so what are these gangs supposedly gaining by agreeing to this?
Loyalty from the gang members still inside.
Amazingly, gang leaders are very often able to operate even while in prison. And of course, there’s possible hits inside of the prison system that need to be “taken care of” by members inside.
Prisons are just an extension, basically, for gang life.
I take one issue who you’re replying to: Violent crime will go up, but first, there will be massive dollars on Bukake’s head.
The other user responded with an actual quote about the situation and it only discusses special treatment for gang leaders like cellphones, prostitutes, and cash payments to gang leaders for their cooperation. This seems like a reasonable thing for these gangs to agree to because they’re gaining all the benefits.
What still doesn’t make sense is why these gangs would blow up this agreement just because some prisoners from the US are being killed or mistreated. It’s not as if the leaders of some of the most violent gangs in the world are human rights advocates. It all just feels like disinformation from this user in order to con people here into complacency and thinking things aren’t quite that bad for the people being illegally held there by the US.
Well, because it would lead them to believe gang members are also being killed.
Except for the fact that these leaders are incarcerated alongside the gang members and freely allowed to talk to them as per the agreement. There’s no reason for them to jeopardize such a sweet gig to protect some strangers from the US. In fact they probably despise these people as they see them as traitors or potential rivals, so again why would they care?
All that aside, this is the same exact tactic Mexico tried with the cartels 15+ years ago, stop the killing and we’ll be lax on enforcement, and it blew up in their face before long. The same will happen in El Salvador too.
My personal conspiracy theory based on absolutely no evidence is that they aren’t tracking who is who there so they don’t know where he is and obviously everyone would say they’re him.
Realistically? No
Ideallistically? Yes. At the least prove he is alive and ok. They had to know this would be coming and had they done this it probably quiets down some of the criticism.
Because the guy is prolly dead
Can’t visit a dead man.
This is my theory too. He’s dead, and the administration doesn’t want to openly admit that an innocent man was murdered because of their racism.
The current US Administration murdered Mr. Garcia.
Sadly, you can.
Friend died recently. I know you can.
I don’t understand what justification El Salvador has for keeping a man imprisoned who never broke any of their laws. Can I pay them to hold my neighbour in prison? How much does it cost?
25k
Depends, what’s your neighbor look like?
If your neighbor causes enough trouble for Trump, we might just find out.
Tbh this is a less bad outcome than I was concerned this was going to have (after letting him in to the prison: “Uh oh, looks like your president thinks you’re a gang member. You can just chill here forever.”)
USians are discovering real fast they dont call the shots anywhere else.
We’re literally paying El Salvador to take these folks. We hold the purse strings in this case.
Americans are absolutely calling the shots here. That’s why El Salvador has him and is keeping him: because the US government is paying them to do so.
The US government is telling the US government to return him but the US government isn’t listening to the US government. I think the statement that the US has lost control of the reigns is apt. The US government cannot currently control the US government.
The US government, like all governments, is comprised of individual people with varying motivations. The person asking for his return is not part of the executive branch, which is what’s paying to keep people in CECOT.
A sitting Senator who is a member of the minority opposition party is asking for him to be returned. The US administration is paying the Salvadoran government to keep him there. The VP of El Salvador told Senator Van Hollen that if the US embassy asked for him to be released they would release him.
A sitting Senator who is a member of the minority opposition party is asking for him to be returned.
You’ve buried the lede so deep. Try “the nine justices of the Supreme Court made a unanimous decision.”
I’m talking about what the headline of the article here says.