When I first emigrated to Germany, I had so high hopes and opinions of this country and people living here. I had seen protests, counter protests, people talking about hard topics, cherishing democracy.
Now, I am disappointed. Looking for a way out. I feel like a criminal because I am against genocide and I support the ICC. I mean a court that it’s main responsibility is to prevent tragedies such as the Holocaust should be supported right?
Things are moving in a direction that makes no sense to me anymore. I feel like an alien
and the bad part is that it is not just Gaza. The same beat downs happen with climate protests and even anti far right protests. Germany is moving to the right and it sucks badly.
It’s tragic to see Germany supporting another Holocaust. You’d think they would have learned their lesson. Many people are just vile to their core. Absolutely disgusting. May every German who supports the Holocaust of the Palestinians burn in hell alongside the Nazis and Zionists.
Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
Even if you are right and nothing is a worthy comparison. Let me ask you a somewhat practical and important moral question:
If I murdered 10 people by shooting them in the head because they are black
Or if I murdered 10 people by slowly torturing them until they die from shock, this time it had nothing to do with who they are, just that I want to do this to someone.
What is worse? A terrible motivation or a terrible outcome?
And now that I asked that, maybe you are thinking that it is kind of a moot point, both are horrible, for both I should be in jail for life if not executed, right?
So we all can agree that out of all of the horrific things possible, genocide is one of the worst. A genocide is already hitting max on the horrifying scale, practically speaking, Hitler should have been in jail for life ir executed, but just because what Netanyahu is doing is not as horrific as the Holocaust, does not mean he shouldn’t also be in jail for life or executed, right?
And what would be the benifit of keeping the Holocaust in a category of it’s own? Does comparing it to something else that basically hits the max on the horrifying scale really reduces from the horrifying reality of the Holocaust?
For the sake of making a better world, I think comparing genocides to genocides, no matter the scale, no matter the horrificness, is the right way to make sure that people understand that any genocide is already as horrifying as it gets
And one last point that I think really drives it home. On the individual level do you think it matters? Does a starving, scared, injured, homeless, orphaned child cares if he is part of the Holocaust or the Gaza genocide? If you take a survivor from each, would you be able to say who is more deeply scarred?
I don’t feel like it is trivialising anything, if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere. It’s less easy to trivialise other such crimes as the Holocaust has been accepted worldwide as one of the darkest chapters of history, so comparisons to it can bring that suffering closer to people and leave less room for the perpetrators to muddy the waters.
if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere
See? And that’s trivialising it. There is not a single case of a genocide as organized, precisely planned and carried out against so many victims. The holocaust is single event in history of mankind. If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it. Every comparsion of a massacre and the holocaust is trivialising the holocaust more and more. One could say (and I do): If the holocaust and other massacres have been compared often enough, holocaust will be just another massacre and it won’t be noticed if it happens again.
If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it.
It feels though as if we trivialized other massacres because they will never hold up to a standard we consider to be beyond comparison.
You are right that comparing such events, as in “this event is less significant because less people died” trivialises the immense human suffering involved in the Holocaust. But that has to go both ways, and comparing the Holocaust to these modern events also trivialises the impact of these current events. Each of these events, indeed each of these deaths is a singular atrocity, a tragedy beyond belief.
I think we can agree that it doesn’t have to be “a” holocaust to be awful and that comparsion to the holocaust doesn’t help.
Though I don’t understand how you both argue that “[comparsion] gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere” and “[comparsion] also trivialises the impact of these current events”. Or don’t you think it “gives a special voice” anymore and changed your opinion since posting that comment?
Do you believe that what Israel is doing in Palastine could be considered a genocide by the ICC aside from your point on the holocaust? Just trying to figure out where you stand in this.
No I agree what we call it doesn’t change what is happening, but your reply helped me understand your motive for wanting to distinguish what happens in Gaza and what happend in Europe 80 years ago, so thank you for answering.
Of course just because of me, huh? I had a great constructive debate with other people in this thread and I won’t discuss anything with you if you start to personally attack me.
Yes, because of sick ghouls like you. There’s a genocide happening right now that is far more documented with far more sick intentions on display from Israel and the world where citizens are getting deported for speaking against an injustice and your here whining about the holocaust? Please tell me when in human history has anybody been given such a special privilege with such a “important genocide” ever happen to anyone else? More Soviets died, more Indians died under colonisation but 100x than 6 million, countless Africans died, the whole American continent was almost wiped of it’s indigenous people. But here you are complaining about something not being compared to the holocaust because it doesn’t fit your special mindset that Jews are the ultimately oppressed people who are god ordained to go to a land they have to connection and commit the worst ethnic cleaning of the modern day. No city has been bombee, starved and devastated like Gaza has in a long long long time. Dresden, Berlin and London got nothing on Gaza.
I disagree. The holocaust is documented as the worse genocide in history by several metrics. Any other mass killing should be juxtaposed to it (and others) to see the similarities and differences. If a nation begins to kill people under the same ideology that birthed the holocaust ( or any other genocide) it should be documented, called out and prevented from doing so, so we don’t get another holocaust or holodomor or Cambodian genocide or Rwandan genocide… If we hold the holocaust as something unique and separate, we make the mistake that it can not happen again.
Europeans in Australia spent about 150 years trying to wipe outs it’s indigenous population. ~84% population decline. Systematic destruction of culture. Policies of displacement, family destruction and to breed them out. This was not the holocaust. But the similarities are there.
We should absolutely be looking at what is happening in Palestine/Israel to see if the same rationale used for the Holocaust is in play.
You may juxtapose it for more or less scientific reasons but as I explained in this thread, you don’t juxtapose it by comparing the holocaust and Gaza in a political debate. I said nothing about we shouldn’t document/prevent massacres or stuff. The current one isn’t under the same ideology as holocaust and doesn’t have to, to despise it.
Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them.
I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That’s not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it’s enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand.
As I repeatedly said: It doesn’t have to be “a holocaust” nor a genocide to despise it. Please just read what I pointed out in this posts’s comment section .
I have, you are missing the point. You seem to be suggesting that what is happening in Gaza is dispicable but can’t be labelled as a “holocaust” nor, arguably, a “genocide”. So this is a semantic argument based on your personal perception of the word holocaust and genocide. Do you have a more appropriate word for what is happening in Gaza? Unfortunately “Gazans are being treated despicably” probably doesn’t capture the whole 50000+ people dead and more dying due to military strikes, starvation and lack of clean water and medical care. See the funny thing with English is that when we don’t have a word for something we borrow one, or use one that describes a similar situation… But, yeah the important thing is that no body should compare this documented genocide with any other genocide especially not the worst one ever documented in detail.
Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It’s unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it’s just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can’t happen again. But it didn’t so far and won’t happen in the current Gaza-massacre. I explained why you really shouldn’t compare the holocaust and Gaza and I don’t see the need to explain it again. Also I won’t discuss anything if you start personally attacking me.
The death toll and methods of extermination are two out of many factors.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can’t happen again.
You want to wait until 6 mill perish before allowing anyone to start drawing comparisons? Wouldn’t it make sense to start earlier so people see the gravity of the situation before everyone’s dead?
I explained why you really shouldn’t compare the holocaust and Gaza
You repeated it a bunch of times but I can’t find anything that resembles an actual explanation.
Also I won’t discuss anything if you start personally attacking me.
Who tf cares about your germans perspective? You guys made billions selling weapons to israel. Why do you think your german perspective have any relevance?
You’re trivializing the mass shaughter of the millions gypsies. You know, the ones who didn’t got to become the genociders and still lives on the streets of berlin
When I first emigrated to Germany, I had so high hopes and opinions of this country and people living here. I had seen protests, counter protests, people talking about hard topics, cherishing democracy.
Now, I am disappointed. Looking for a way out. I feel like a criminal because I am against genocide and I support the ICC. I mean a court that it’s main responsibility is to prevent tragedies such as the Holocaust should be supported right?
Things are moving in a direction that makes no sense to me anymore. I feel like an alien
Now that’s the good thing bout the EU. You can pack up and go to another one quite easily.
and the bad part is that it is not just Gaza. The same beat downs happen with climate protests and even anti far right protests. Germany is moving to the right and it sucks badly.
It’s tragic to see Germany supporting another Holocaust. You’d think they would have learned their lesson. Many people are just vile to their core. Absolutely disgusting. May every German who supports the Holocaust of the Palestinians burn in hell alongside the Nazis and Zionists.
It’s pitiful really.
Stop it. Stop comparing the Shoa and the current massacre in Gaza. No massacre is like the holocaust, there are no holocausts. Especially from my German perspective, comparing the Shoa and another massacre is to trivialise the mass slaughter on six million jews.
Even if you are right and nothing is a worthy comparison. Let me ask you a somewhat practical and important moral question:
If I murdered 10 people by shooting them in the head because they are black
Or if I murdered 10 people by slowly torturing them until they die from shock, this time it had nothing to do with who they are, just that I want to do this to someone.
What is worse? A terrible motivation or a terrible outcome?
And now that I asked that, maybe you are thinking that it is kind of a moot point, both are horrible, for both I should be in jail for life if not executed, right?
So we all can agree that out of all of the horrific things possible, genocide is one of the worst. A genocide is already hitting max on the horrifying scale, practically speaking, Hitler should have been in jail for life ir executed, but just because what Netanyahu is doing is not as horrific as the Holocaust, does not mean he shouldn’t also be in jail for life or executed, right?
And what would be the benifit of keeping the Holocaust in a category of it’s own? Does comparing it to something else that basically hits the max on the horrifying scale really reduces from the horrifying reality of the Holocaust?
For the sake of making a better world, I think comparing genocides to genocides, no matter the scale, no matter the horrificness, is the right way to make sure that people understand that any genocide is already as horrifying as it gets
And one last point that I think really drives it home. On the individual level do you think it matters? Does a starving, scared, injured, homeless, orphaned child cares if he is part of the Holocaust or the Gaza genocide? If you take a survivor from each, would you be able to say who is more deeply scarred?
Honest, truly honest question here, why?
I don’t feel like it is trivialising anything, if anything the Holocaust and its worldwide condemnation gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere. It’s less easy to trivialise other such crimes as the Holocaust has been accepted worldwide as one of the darkest chapters of history, so comparisons to it can bring that suffering closer to people and leave less room for the perpetrators to muddy the waters.
See? And that’s trivialising it. There is not a single case of a genocide as organized, precisely planned and carried out against so many victims. The holocaust is single event in history of mankind. If you compare any other massacre to it, you start trivialising it. Every comparsion of a massacre and the holocaust is trivialising the holocaust more and more. One could say (and I do): If the holocaust and other massacres have been compared often enough, holocaust will be just another massacre and it won’t be noticed if it happens again.
It feels though as if we trivialized other massacres because they will never hold up to a standard we consider to be beyond comparison.
You are right that comparing such events, as in “this event is less significant because less people died” trivialises the immense human suffering involved in the Holocaust. But that has to go both ways, and comparing the Holocaust to these modern events also trivialises the impact of these current events. Each of these events, indeed each of these deaths is a singular atrocity, a tragedy beyond belief.
I think we can agree that it doesn’t have to be “a” holocaust to be awful and that comparsion to the holocaust doesn’t help.
Though I don’t understand how you both argue that “[comparsion] gives a special voice to victims of such crimes everywhere” and “[comparsion] also trivialises the impact of these current events”. Or don’t you think it “gives a special voice” anymore and changed your opinion since posting that comment?
Do you believe that what Israel is doing in Palastine could be considered a genocide by the ICC aside from your point on the holocaust? Just trying to figure out where you stand in this.
Could be a genocide. Isn’t yet classified as such, might never be.
No I agree what we call it doesn’t change what is happening, but your reply helped me understand your motive for wanting to distinguish what happens in Gaza and what happend in Europe 80 years ago, so thank you for answering.
Wow, a constructive debate about Middle East among leftist. As a German memer, I would have to reply with:
Spoiler
But I don’t think that’s appropriate for this topic.
The next genocide won’t be noticed again because you and others will make the same argument that “it’s not the Holocaust” so it doesn’t matter.
Of course just because of me, huh? I had a great constructive debate with other people in this thread and I won’t discuss anything with you if you start to personally attack me.
Yes, because of sick ghouls like you. There’s a genocide happening right now that is far more documented with far more sick intentions on display from Israel and the world where citizens are getting deported for speaking against an injustice and your here whining about the holocaust? Please tell me when in human history has anybody been given such a special privilege with such a “important genocide” ever happen to anyone else? More Soviets died, more Indians died under colonisation but 100x than 6 million, countless Africans died, the whole American continent was almost wiped of it’s indigenous people. But here you are complaining about something not being compared to the holocaust because it doesn’t fit your special mindset that Jews are the ultimately oppressed people who are god ordained to go to a land they have to connection and commit the worst ethnic cleaning of the modern day. No city has been bombee, starved and devastated like Gaza has in a long long long time. Dresden, Berlin and London got nothing on Gaza.
I disagree. The holocaust is documented as the worse genocide in history by several metrics. Any other mass killing should be juxtaposed to it (and others) to see the similarities and differences. If a nation begins to kill people under the same ideology that birthed the holocaust ( or any other genocide) it should be documented, called out and prevented from doing so, so we don’t get another holocaust or holodomor or Cambodian genocide or Rwandan genocide… If we hold the holocaust as something unique and separate, we make the mistake that it can not happen again. Europeans in Australia spent about 150 years trying to wipe outs it’s indigenous population. ~84% population decline. Systematic destruction of culture. Policies of displacement, family destruction and to breed them out. This was not the holocaust. But the similarities are there. We should absolutely be looking at what is happening in Palestine/Israel to see if the same rationale used for the Holocaust is in play.
You may juxtapose it for more or less scientific reasons but as I explained in this thread, you don’t juxtapose it by comparing the holocaust and Gaza in a political debate. I said nothing about we shouldn’t document/prevent massacres or stuff. The current one isn’t under the same ideology as holocaust and doesn’t have to, to despise it.
Juxtapose means to put things side by side to compare them. I said document it, call it out and prevent it. That’s not for scientific reasons, its very much political. How many more Gazans need to be killed before it’s enough like the holocaust for someone to do something to stop it? We compare these things because they look similar. Not to trivialise, but to understand.
As I repeatedly said: It doesn’t have to be “a holocaust” nor a genocide to despise it. Please just read what I pointed out in this posts’s comment section .
Imagine being a pos having to put quotes around “genocide” lmao
I have, you are missing the point. You seem to be suggesting that what is happening in Gaza is dispicable but can’t be labelled as a “holocaust” nor, arguably, a “genocide”. So this is a semantic argument based on your personal perception of the word holocaust and genocide. Do you have a more appropriate word for what is happening in Gaza? Unfortunately “Gazans are being treated despicably” probably doesn’t capture the whole 50000+ people dead and more dying due to military strikes, starvation and lack of clean water and medical care. See the funny thing with English is that when we don’t have a word for something we borrow one, or use one that describes a similar situation… But, yeah the important thing is that no body should compare this documented genocide with any other genocide especially not the worst one ever documented in detail.
It’s exactly the same ideology. National-socialism. The all-powerful nation taking care of its children, at the expense of everybody else.
And from my German perspective acting like the Holocaust is entirely its own thing and ephasizing that it cannot repeat itself no matter what trivialises it more than any lukewarm comparison could. It’s unfortunately a common sentiment but a dangerous one because if it’s just a historical fact and completely detached from the present then why should anyone except historians care? Shutting down any comparison to current events does nothing except show everyone what a virtuous, guilt-ridden German you are. Focusing on the aspects of the Holocaust that were not unique and could happen again/are happening again would be more productive.
I never said an organized genocide with more than six million victims can’t happen again. But it didn’t so far and won’t happen in the current Gaza-massacre. I explained why you really shouldn’t compare the holocaust and Gaza and I don’t see the need to explain it again. Also I won’t discuss anything if you start personally attacking me.
The death toll and methods of extermination are two out of many factors.
You want to wait until 6 mill perish before allowing anyone to start drawing comparisons? Wouldn’t it make sense to start earlier so people see the gravity of the situation before everyone’s dead?
You repeated it a bunch of times but I can’t find anything that resembles an actual explanation.
I didn’t?
Ah yes, it’s not a genocide because they didn’t kill enough people yet.
Who tf cares about your germans perspective? You guys made billions selling weapons to israel. Why do you think your german perspective have any relevance?
You’re trivializing the mass shaughter of the millions gypsies. You know, the ones who didn’t got to become the genociders and still lives on the streets of berlin