Also, look up Pinochet Regime in Chile
Note that the student movement formed an incredibly unique decentralized political apparatus OUTSIDE of the formal institutions. They are exemplary and I am excited to see how successful they are going forward. Dismantling the Vucic corporatist apparatus won’t be easy but I think this movement is genuinely capable of it.
They did not vote blue no matter who, they built their own political bloc from fucking scratch.
They did not vote blue no matter who, they built their own political bloc from fucking scratch
And if my grandmother had wheels she’d be a bicycle.
The political landscape of Serbia does not seem to be one in which the concept of “blue no matter who” even resolves to an intelligible idea.
You can’t just transplant the political strategy of one set of conditions to a completely different set of conditions.
Certainly we have the same end goals, but your implied expectations do not match the conditions outside of Serbia.
Yes I agree. Serbia and America are not similar. Which is why the electoral success of the Serbian student movement does not mean electoralism is a viable strategy for significant political change in the united states as the post is suggesting.
Neither does it mean that it isn’t.
you’re doing great
it honestly feels like a psyop at this point. in russia there was a particular focus on making people “apolitical”, which is a different direction but still was focused on reducing opposition turnout.
Read Aleksandr Dugin book and it all makes sense. It’s part of the geopolitical playbook.
Sowing Social Division: The book explicitly directs Russian operatives to introduce “geopolitical disorder” inside the U.S. by fueling racial, social, and religious polarization.
Exploiting the Democratic Process: While it doesn’t give a step-by-step guide to voter suppression, it encourages the promotion of isolationist and extremist political groups to break down faith in public institutions, media, and the democratic process itself.
I think Dugin gets too much credit, here’s a pretty good write-up from an outsider’s perspective. As a Russian, I think it’s one of the most accurate description of what’s been going on.
If you’re trying to get rid of Walmarts in your neighbourhood then I think one of those options is much more effective.
People on twitter be like “you think we need to change the system? That pales in effectiveness to my strategy, helping neoliberalis win elections” and then not win elections
I’m just saying, we have the power to start helping economically and socially oppressed people without relying on the government. I’m not asking you to firebomb a Walmart, I’m asking you to hide undocumented immigrants in your house or help them obtain firearms illegally if they require so they can start a militia, those crimes.
and then doesn’t hide undocumented immigrants in your house or help them obtain firearms illegally if they require so they can start a militia.
'Cause I literally cannot do those things because I’m about to be homeless. I have no income and cannot get a job because I’m too autistic and too trans and too traumatized for one. So I’m on a timer until my conservative abusive parents decide to rid of me (and they have threatened it multiple times). I rely on them for my survival, currently. I have type one diabetes, so it is likely if I am evicted that I will die shortly after from being unable to have access to insulin or other diabetes supplies reliably.
A friend bought be one vial of estradiol enanthate online through crypto and shipped it to me, so that’s nice, not much, but this is what I’m talking about.
Idk, this kinda stuff is like for working class people. My class is probably lumpenproletariat, I don’t have the resources to do much.
If you are hiding undocumented immigrants in your house or helping them illegally obtain firearms, please for the love of god don’t post about it on a public forum.
Sounds like something the “i dont vote” crowd thought up
I dont shower!
When was the last time showering prevented disease?
If a US student list were created and the people on the list weren’t part of the 2 major parties, the organizers would be told that we have to work within the 2 party system.
Math doesn’t care about feel-good stories, and our stupid electoral system works differently. Any particular state electing a third-party senator is immediately feasible, albeit only every six years, staggered. Any particular state electing third-party representatives is doable but relies on deeply fucked district maps which can shift out from under candidates or incumbents. None of this has anything to do with the executive branch because we don’t have a ministerial parliament - and electing a third-party president is next to fucking impossible.
Unless one of the first-party nominees dies, we are simply not going to see American voters rally behind anyone else, with the uniformity necessary to win enough states’ independent all-or-nothing contests. A supermajority can demand one particular guy and they do not count if they live in the wrong borders. It is more likely that that several hundred theoretically-neutral state electors simply decide to make shit up and install whoever they want. That’s how Ron fucking Paul wound up with one of Hillary’s electoral votes.
If the glib solution worked, it would simply happen.
Unfortunately we need ballot reform. Anything would be better. Letting people check multiple names would break this duopoly. Critics bitch about “bullet voting” (not that kind) and I remind them that’s how things work now. Ranked ballots would be simple and massively powerful, even if we squandered them on a misuse like IRV. The right answer requires a Condorcet method because the function of an election is to pick someone the most people want.
Your preference for this guy over that guy should count fully, even if you’d prefer to be governed by an ideal longshot, or a complete nobody, or Mickey Mouse. Ranked Pairs lets you safely put all those losers ahead of anyone with a real chance. All that matters is, if it came down to A vs B: who ya got?
My favorite condorcet method is Pairwise Voting, simply because it’s the easiest to explain to people. Mathematically, all condorcet methods are equivelent. You just need to pick a fallback method of choosing when there’s a condorcet cycle.
So in a couple years when it becomes obvious that the new boss is the same as the old boss will you all stfu forever about how it’s possible to vote away the wealth and power of the unelected ruling class?
I feel you but the situation in Serbia is actually exceptional. For 15 years Vucic had effectively built a “state capitalist” system but the goal was to simply make him and his friends personally very wealthy rather than using markets to build productive forces which could then be utilized by a proletarian state. Much of the Serbian economy is nominally nationalized and a group like this in charge that corporatist structure could be dismantled. This creation of Vucic is the primary contradiction in Serbia. Should this national economy be wielded in the interest of the people (or split up and privatized less in a less favorable circumstance) then the primary intetnal contradiction would become Capitalism generally rather than a cartel who has monopolized the entire economy. This would allow for more a more class conscious movement to form. It isn’t THE change but it is progress towards it and the unique way they accomplished this could be emulated in similar places. America is not a similar place unfortunately.
Ok, but that still makes the election they won just a prelude to the actual fight. The OP was talking like they’d already won by winning the election. The ghost of Salvador Allende screams across the decades that you can never vote your way out of capitalism. The capitalists would rather see us all dead than free.
If we all shut up you won’t be able to act like your farts smell like cinnamon and roses though. Why ask to stop the only reason you keep on living? If you don’t get to pretend like you’re smarter and better than everyone else then what’s the point of your existence?
I think I touched a nerve. I’m sorry, did bringing up reality ruin your brunch?
reality
Lol, lmao even. Just stop helping fascists accomplish their goals please 🙂
I’m not the one voting for the Neoliberal ghouls lining up to grease the slide to fascism.
So back atcha.
Nah you’re voting for the fascists more directly and then intentionally trying to hurt any opposition to them.
Veteran Democratic strategist James Carville said he would rather see Republicans keep control of the House by five seats than watch Democrats win the chamber by the same margin, warning that a “nightmare” razor-thin majority would leave party leaders “hostage to the DSA.”
As if the Democrats are an opposition to fascism, lmao, your country is already all the way fascist. They literally committed a genocide. We will keep saying that forever.
“any opposition” I assume is meant to be about the democratic party? But that doesn’t really make sense considering
THIS was the actual democratic party candidate
Chicago Police has had “black sites” for decades
Ferguson Riot leaders were assassinated and disappeared under Obama in a dem city with a dem governor [2]
American police used to (and still does) torture detainees [2]
Biden deported more than Trump 1
Biden expanded the concentration camps [2]
Biden was planning on doing mass deportations using ICE as well
Not to mention democrats are working with the republicans
Dems held secret meetings with Jared Kushner
What opposition are you talking about? The Democrats have done every bit as much to make fascism viable as the GOP has.
Which side accelerated the genocide?
Voting got Trump into the White House. It works. Just because it didn’t work the way you wanted it to last time doesn’t mean throw a hissy fit and sit on your ass.
The secret is that the “voting doesn’t work” crowd actually like him there. They just want to see things fall apart and he’s a rabble rouser that they can make is of.
Encourage your most extreme opponents that their vote doesn’t work.
100%. If you come on to a liberal/left-leaning place like Lemmy and say things like “voting doesn’t work” and “both sides” it’s obvious where you stand.
And you only need to look around the internet to notice the “Voting doesn’t work” or “Both sides bad” bots and idiots are coming out of the woordwork again for the next US election.
If I take a shower, that won’t suddenly make me attractive to girls. And yet, if I don’t take a shower, my stench will make me unattractive to girls.
On second thoughts, the “why bother voting” crowd would probably struggle with an analogy about taking a shower.
would probably struggle with an analogy about taking a shower.
Or an analogy about girls, for that matter.
Or an analogy about matter, since they are bots.
Girls will sooner filter you out for not being tall enough than for smelling. If you smell but you’re their phenotype, they just call it musk. Anything is possible when you argue in bad faith. Now go work on yourself some more, possibly for a few years; and as far away from me as possible, while I flirt with someone I liked at first sight.
This person needs a shower.
i think the thing with elections is that while they can change and improve things, any one persons individual absitnance is neglegable, especially on a national level. if many people do not vote though, that does have an impact.
so if i chose not to vote but did not tell anyone about it, there would be basically no difference, while me talking about not voting or advocating against voting could meaningfully contribute.
i don’t know how to squeeze that into a shower analogie…
anyway, everyone should go and vote for what i think is the best!
here is a margaret killjoy quote
“I’m going to choose the person who represents my interests in this grand democratic project.” I enter the booth thinking “with this one hour of my day, I’ll express my opinion about the terrain on which I’d like to keep fighting for a better world.” And I’d rather be fighting the democrats than the fascists.
‘One vote won’t matter,’ said forty million people.
I love Margaret Killjoy and think she’s right when it comes to individual action here, but it’s also important that the Democrats believe we might not vote for them if they start acting like Republicans. There is zero incentive for terrible Democrats to change if all they ever hear are people shitting blood about how you have to vote for a Democrat no matter who it is.
voting is an expression of solidarity
I, too, remember when biden winning in 2020 ended trump and fascism.
Thankfully we only live four to eight years at a time so I have no idea what you’re talking about. This problem will go away completely if we elect John democrat.
Unjerk: voting for harm reduction and local elections is important but don’t stop there. Join a mutual aid group, attend local meetings if you can and care for your neighbors.
Yeah I think that’s what makes people so annoyed about the energy put towards voting. Like I don’t care if you vote. I’m not gonna. But do whatever. But I wish like 25% of the energy people put toward voting also went towards any of that other stuff. So it does annoy me a bit seeing all the vote blue no matter who stuff. Because I know they’re gonna go vote and pat themselves on the back and call it a day the vast majority of the time.
errrm it didnt end it so it’s ineffective
alr bud
Image says the answer to the question “when did voting last end an authoritarian regime” is “two days ago”. I’m just pointing out that it didn’t end it. You added the “ineffective” part.
To be fair, it won’t be a full blown dictatorship until he takes a third term by force. Until then it’s just sparkling tyranny.
“Dictatorship” is not just a synonym for any unelected leader. Begging you people to learn what the words you use mean
Dictators can still be voted for, and many of them are through highly rigged elections. A burecrat is someone who’s appointed to a position of power, which’d be closer in alignment with that definition. Really I don’t think either term would apply here in good faith.
Oligarch is right there, but these people wanna misuse every term they hear.
There’s also plenty of people put in positions of power that aren’t classified as bureaucrats (like the Catholic clergy, a bunch of different regional administrators of the byzantine, latin and SEA Empires)
Even if you don’t think voting will fix everything, just remember that it won’t -hurt- anything. Just vote.
People voted for the democrats. The democrats did a genocide.
Voting can’t hurt!
Alright I guess Im gonna vote for Trump since it cant hurt.
The eternal science of BadEmpanadaism Marxism Leninism Maoism Online-Trollism.
Slammer tier meme
If you are slammer then you have to tell me
I prefer not to answer.
Vote for me instead. Why choose the lesser evil?
Alright, can’t hurt.
Alright, then, we should vote for a socialist party, at least in local elections.
Go for it! Make your voice heard.
It can work, but not always. cough Russia cough
And I am sure the Pedophile of the United States will find some way to throw the votes not in his favor out of the window.
Go Brazil!
Go Brazilian!
Why are people attributing this to Serbia?
-
Serbia didn’t win via voting, voting was a consequence of their victory
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Brazil is literally right there and makes so much more sense as a case study
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Voting out fascism never works except for all the times it has like the same fucking guy in 2020
Considering where we are now that doesn’t seem like a great argument.
That was a failure of the judiciary. And the executive. Also the legislative. But the whole government? Nah. That’s a complete overreaction or something sorry I can’t keep this up
A surgeon saving your dog still counts if he later runs into traffic a second time. The vet’s office is not the shortcoming.
Except in this case the vet didn’t stitch up the wound or set the leg. The vet just stuck a Band-Aid on it. But it was still bleeding, the wound was still full of gravel, and the leg was still broken.
Also the vets the one who hits the dog with the car both times.
No one on this service can be trusted with an analogy.
I hope the Serbians don’t go out to brunch like the Americans did.
The bigger problem here in the USA was that biden ran on a “return to normalcy” and didn’t even do that. And the reason trump won originally was partly bc many people were fed up with how things were and knew we needed change. trump is a “business man” (🙄) and americans believe the myth of meritocracy so they think that bc trump has money he’s a good businessman
So when shit didn’t get better under biden, the just got worse slower and in less dramatic ways, people wanted something else. Since Harris was literally bidens vp and didn’t distance herself from him, people voted for the other guy bc we suffer under a 2 party system
Was it absolutely fucking stupid for people to vote for trump a second time and think things would be better? Yes. But, the dems also failed to provide a good, better candidate. That’s why its so uplifting to see all of these leftist and DSA candidates. People are finally getting involved and saying we deserve better and won’t settle for less
This is the thing mainstream democratic voters struggle so much with.
If the Democratic Party cant translate electoral victory into positive action, then they won’t get votes next time.
They win an election on making things better and then tell you “oh well shoot, we couldn’t quite get there, we were so surprised to get power we didn’t know what to do with it, we passed a CHIPS act to give money to Intel though, is that what you wanted?”
Even the ACA, the hallmark 21st century legislation for the neoliberal democrats has approximately 2 thingss people like, young people can stay on their parents plan until 25 and pre-existing conditions cant be used to deny coverage. Everything else about it sucks though, we still have for profit insurance companies, whose power and profits are now enmeshed into the system even deeper and enshrined in law. Insurers so popular with the common man that when one of their CEOs gets gunned down the media has to give up on trying to make him a sympathetic character because of how much everyone fucking hates health insurance.
The democrats are constantly telling us how glacially slow any positive change has to be, that’s just the rules man. But the republicans get the slimmest majority and a flood of project 2025 / heritage foundation / ALEC bills are ready to go getting passed making sweeping changes to tax codes, environmental regulations, the social safety net.
And every election the people that say the Dems are a garbage party that cant win because of their garbage candidates that go on to twiddle their fucking thumbs get yelled at for depressing voter turnout.
You know what really depresses voter turnout, failing to deliver every time you win an election. There is some great chunk of this nation that will only go out and vote if they get angry enough or like what the current administration is doing enough to show up. The Dems only seem to be able to scratch together a victory on the angry enough side of the coin, because they’ve given up on giving the voters something to vote for. Why? Because those policies will almost certainly upset the donors, and they need those donors to run a bunch of tv ads that won’t convince a single Republican to cross over, but still need to be aired 24/7.
That’s the most frustrating part, all this money spent for the Dems to attempt to court a handful of theoretical republicans instead of actually energizing their base.
I’ll hold my nose and vote for these feckless cowards, but they could have a blue wave, a blue tsunami, a blue Armageddon, and I don’t expect them to do a damn thing. They’ll have some investigations, they will release some reports, they will probably impeach again. And none of that will change a damn thing.
Every time someone ignores a congressional subpoena they will tell the sergeant at arms to take a nap, not go arrest them. They will rubber stamp the next huge pile of money for ICE for fear of being labeled soft on crime or immigration. They won’t enshrine abortion rights it trans protections into law because it will be too controversial and there will always be just enough Dems in “tough districts” that turn tail.
Then they will act indignant when those voters that got nothing dont show up next time.
There is no “beating fascism”, it’s an ethernal struggle, those fuckers are relentless. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, doesn’t invalidate your wins however small and temporary
