• @[email protected]
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      020 days ago

      Agreed but the problem with this is that it requires people to be ok with the idea that they are building something that they likely won’t see. It’s a difficult concept for most people to grapple with.

      • db0
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        020 days ago

        The reason why prefiguration works is because the same praxis also helps to improve one’s life in the here and now.

  • Chloé 🥕
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    020 days ago

    ah, exactly what i missed from reddit: ableist wojak PCM nonsense. lovely.

    • @[email protected]
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      019 days ago

      I’m sorry I hurt the fee fees of people who want to destroy society and drag everyone into a hellish nightmare by calling them dumb.

          • @[email protected]
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            020 days ago

            There was a short time it wasn’t, and it was pretty hilarious ngl, but you have to have that kind of humor.

              • @[email protected]
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                020 days ago

                I hadn’t seen this specific story, it’s very accurate from what I’ve seen over the years.

                4chan, basically any online game chat room, blizzard in particular holy shit, I remember playing SC1 and WC3 online and for the most part everyone was normal, go to any Blizz game public chat now and it’s full of trump/nazi spammers. Crazy.

                Something I’ve been thinking about since watching the comedian part of the Trumps rally right before he got elected the 2nd time… The jokes made me laugh, but not in a “haha he’s so right! Puerto Ricans are trash!” it was in a “wow! anyone who believes that is such an idiot!” similarly I very much enjoy edgy humor like Southpark or a smaller project like DBZ Abridged, TO ME the joke is in the ridiculousness that anyone would say/act/behave that way, but it absolutely invites in the people who unironically agree with it.

                It’s unfortunate to say the least.

                • Dr. Moose
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                  019 days ago

                  It’s crazy what a great example 4chan is of this. Used to be 99 dudes laughing and playing along with some weird idiot and then suddenly it’s 99 weird idiots. Really what turned me to sanitization of spaces.

          • @[email protected]
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            020 days ago

            Which is unfortunate, because using 2 dimensions to describe political ideology is much more informative than using just one (left VS right).

            • @[email protected]
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              019 days ago

              Vast government structures that encompass the lives of hundreds of millions of people can’t be put on a single page. We shouldn’t focus on political identity. We should focus on what works.

              • @[email protected]
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                19 days ago

                Are you saying it’s better to use one dimension to describe political ideology than 2 dimensions? Because that’s all I’m comparing. I’m not saying the political compass is perfect, I’m saying it’s better than “left VS right.”

                • @[email protected]
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                  19 days ago

                  I’m saying human systems and the ideas surrounding them can’t be quantified by a single graph.

            • @[email protected]
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              019 days ago

              Not really, because somehow a libertarian society where you can own slaves is less “authoritarian” than a socialist society where everyone is fed, housed, because the poor capitalists don’t get the power to exploit people.

              Meanwhile a primitive anarchist commune with so little development of the means of production, a person’s only options are to fill a very specific role in society or starve becomes free again.

              The term “authoritarian” is not useful for describing how much agency people in a society have over their own lives.

              • @[email protected]
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                019 days ago

                Not really, because somehow a libertarian society where you can own slaves is less “authoritarian” than a socialist society where everyone is fed, housed, because the poor capitalists don’t get the power to exploit people.

                I’ve never heard anyone argue that before, and it’s not shown on the compass itself. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

  • @[email protected]
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    019 days ago

    " It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A master’s degree in “Indian Studies” or in “education” or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into the traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.

    I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, I’m not allowing for false distinctions. I’m not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. I’m referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and “leftism” in general. I don’t believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the European intellectual tradition. It’s really just the same old song.

    The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, “revolutionized” physics and the so-called natural science by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation.

    Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these “thinkers” took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into a code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they “secularized” Christian religion, as the “scholars” like to say — and in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!.

    This is what has come to be termed “efficiency” in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the moment — that is, proves the mechanical model to be the right one — is considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why “truth” changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.

    Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theology — and that is put in his own terms — he secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegel’s philosophy in terms of “materialism,” which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegel’s work altogether. Again, this is in Marx’ own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, But American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining. The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marx’ — and his followers’ — links to the tradition of Newton, Hegel, and the others.

    Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is “proof that the system works” to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But lets look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.

    The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, “Thou shalt not kill,” at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.

    In terms of the despiritualization of the universe, the mental process works so that it become virtuous to destroy the planet. Terms like progress and development are used as cover words here, the way victory and freedom are used to justify butchery in the dehumanization process. For example, a real-estate speculator may refer to “developing” a parcel of ground by opening a gravel quarry; development here means total, permanent destruction, with the earth itself removed. But European logic has gained a few tons of gravel with which more land can be “developed” through the construction of road beds. Ultimately, the whole universe is open — in the European view — to this sort of insanity.

    Most important here, perhaps, is the fact that Europeans feel no sense of loss in this. After all, their philosophers have despiritualized reality, so there is no satisfaction (for them) to be gained in simply observing the wonder of a mountain or a lake or a people in being. No, satisfaction is measured in terms of gaining material. So the mountain becomes gravel, and the lake becomes coolant for a factory, and the people are rounded up for processing through the indoctrination mills Europeans like to call schools.

    But each new piece of that “progress” ups the ante out in the real world. Take fuel for the industrial machine as an example. Little more than two centuries ago, nearly everyone used wood — a replenishable, natural item — as fuel for the very human needs of cooking and staying warm. Along came the Industrial Revolution and coal became the dominant fuel, as production became the social imperative for Europe. Pollution began to become a problem in the cities, and the earth was ripped open to provide coal whereas wood had simply been gathered or harvested at no great expense to the environment. Later, oil became the major fuel, as the technology of production was perfected through a series of scientific “revolutions.” Pollution increased dramatically, and nobody yet knows what the environmental costs of pumping all that oil out of the ground will really be in the long run. Now there’s an “energy crisis,” and uranium is becoming the dominant fuel.

    Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate at which they can show a good profit. That’s their ethic, and maybe that will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because it’s the most “efficient” production fuel available. That’s their ethic, and I fail to see where it’s preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of the European tradition. It’s the same old song."

  • @[email protected]
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    019 days ago

    “Why is 99% of the population such smooth brained extremists?” ; said Nero as he kept on fiddling and turning up the heat

    Think of poor lil, Nero he just wants to play his fiddle in peace.

  • @[email protected]
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    19 days ago

    It’s not all or nothing, another way to think of it is:

    How bad do things have to get for there to be an actual shift to making things better?

    I would love to make things better one step at a time, I think our system is a great starting point.

    But I ask myself the above question everytime things seem to be headed downward.

    Events like Luigi is what I mean by things getting bad enough for something to push back.

    • @[email protected]
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      019 days ago

      Which is a great analogy cause Hari fully lived and died in the collapsing empire. His life never improved due to faster collapse.

  • @[email protected]
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    020 days ago

    The difference is, in the bottom left we’ve been aware the Empire is receding and are already creating new structures in the cracks left behind

    The other three quadrants are just doing the same old shit

    • Monkey With A Shell
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      020 days ago

      All would say the same thing there. Look at the auth right we have today and the rhetoric of ‘the decadent decay of society and the need to rebuild traditional structures…’

      • db0
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        020 days ago

        None of the other three have the concept of prefiguration

        • Monkey With A Shell
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          020 days ago

          So I went looking for how you might define the term outside of a pre-ordained order of society and found it somewhat comical that the M/W dictionary’s first example came from the playbook of the poster child for fascism…

          https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prefiguration

          This chilling prefiguration of Hitler’s Final Solution is unmistakable, and Heidegger never explained, let alone apologized for, such horrendous statements. —Gregory Fried, Foreign Affairs, 17 Oct. 2014

          • db0
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            020 days ago

            That’s doesn’t seem to be the same concept as the anarchist political praxis

      • @[email protected]
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        020 days ago

        They can say the same, but who’s structures would you rather be a part of, given the choice? Horizontally-organized ones that function cooperatively, or the same crap you’ve got right now?

        All we gotta do is keep showing people that better ways exist and work.

        • Monkey With A Shell
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          020 days ago

          I don’t argue with the notion that virtually anything is better than we have now. I’d probably fall somewhere leftish but pretty neutral in the auth/lib scale. Basically to say having central authority enough to get things like big science, public infra, and foundational enforcement to the extent of ensuring people play by the agreed rules, but not the elite group dictation of them we have now. The idea of the self moderating and communal policing commune sounds nice, but unrealistic if you have anyone not following that path in or near the society.

      • @[email protected]
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        020 days ago

        Well, an opportunity for it.

        Anarchism means “no rulers” not “no rules”. Smaller communities tend to organize cooperatively by nature, but we have to consciously organize so seizure of power is preventable.

        • 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮
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          19 days ago

          Anarchism means “no rulers” not “no rules”.

          And if the government collapsed, there would be a brief period where there are no recognized rulers. 🤦‍♂️

    • @[email protected]
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      020 days ago

      I think there are plenty of people of all political ideologies who don’t fall into this intellectual trap. But I took this as criticism of a very real breed of political slacktivist who thinks that their preferred society is so natural or inevitable that it will just happen automatically whenever the current rulers fuck up badly enough.

      But this is just fairy tale thinking. New societal structures are built from the bottom up and only replace the existing ones when a state of incredible weakness for one structure coexists with a state of strength for the new structure.

      So I kind of agree but there are definitely lib-left people who engage in this type of thinking. It seems like insurrectionary anarchists largely fit in that category, but someone who knows more about their ideology can correct me if I got it wrong.

      • @[email protected]
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        020 days ago

        a very real breed of political slacktivist who thinks that their preferred society is so natural or inevitable that it will just happen automatically whenever the current rulers fuck up badly enough.

        Excellent description.

      • @[email protected]
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        20 days ago

        I consider myself one ;) post-left anarchism in general

        We’re not waiting around for a revolution, we’re of a mind to DIY where we can. At least, that’s the idea. Individual actions may vary.

        • @[email protected]
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          20 days ago

          Ah gotcha well if you are genuinely building new structures then you are not the type I’m talking about, so it’s possible my above statement was a mischaracterization. I’ve just run into some people whose plan for replacing the state/capitalism is basically:

          Set fire to shit

          ???

          Profit Anarchist utopia

          And I just don’t think that has any chance of working whatsoever.

  • @[email protected]
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    020 days ago

    Everyone who thinks this seems to forget that they have to live through the collapse of civilization. It’s not gonna be pleasant.

    • @[email protected]
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      020 days ago

      Everyone is so used to consuming news not necessarily as entertainment but as background hum or as ammunition to confirm their ideology or dispel another. This isn’t wrong per se, but I think the consequence of constant barrage of war, disaster, tragedy, corporate abuse, political abuse at home and abroad desensitizes people to the possibility that these things can happen to them tomorrow right outside their front door.

      They’re so used to the idea that theoretically the government has always been able to do whatever it wants to you they don’t realize how viscerally real it is that now they can do it without making excuses or cover ups, or under any pretense, and not only will no one do anything but millions will support the regime while you’re black bagged without due process. Authoritarian violence in America was always bad, but at least there had to be an excuse, a judicial system set up to defend cops who lie and say they felt threatened. Soon they will be brazen enough to snatch you up without pretense of a crime, without anyone knowing and without needing to explain themselves

      They don’t realize how viscerally bad it will be for them when war breaks out no matter which side of that war they are on. Accelerationists are fucking clowns and they are not prepared for the world they’ve been jerking off to.

      • @[email protected]
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        019 days ago

        Authoritarian violence in America was always bad, but at least there had to be an excuse, a judicial system set up to defend cops who lie and say they felt threatened.

        Hah! No, it’s always been like that. Particularly against minorities.

        • @[email protected]
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          017 days ago

          Right, and they are tried in an unfair judicial system and sent to American prison. This is bad, but not sending people to El Salvador without trial to die levels of bad. These things aren’t equal and to imply it is is disingenuous

    • @[email protected]
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      020 days ago

      It reminds me too much of these moments in RTS games, or Sim City, that time you got hit hard and you have to rebuild, but don’t have resources to build, but to get more resources you need to build infrastructure. It can take so long to get out of that rut, and that’s of you don’t get hit by another calamity.

      Sometimes I think any policy maker should play a game of old school Sim City 2000 and we can all see how they do before we vote for them.

      • @[email protected]
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        019 days ago

        The problem is realism. Sim City would teach you that a village of 150 people will absolutely grow into a thriving city because that’s the simple premise of the game - it’s a citybuilder - but that’s not how real life works. They could play increasingly more complex simulation games like Democracy 3, and it would still fail to be a realistic look at the complexities of modern society.

        I’d also argue the opposite lesson is usually learned from games, because most gamers don’t play on “hardcore” mode - and those that do play hardcore can still always reroll or /ff to start another game or even just touch grass and stop playing the game. Playing God doesn’t reinforce empathy.

        Good policy needs to balance a clinical approach against empathetic concerns. My advice to policy makers would be reading books like “Cities and the Wealth of Nations” by Jane Jacobs and learning from modern experts and non-profit advocates like Strong Towns. They should be looking to peers for success stories to emulate and for failures to avoid.

        • @[email protected]
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          018 days ago

          Yeah, Sim City is not that realistic, but what some politicians belt out is so wrong they wouldn´t even get them out of a city builder start area.

      • @[email protected]
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        20 days ago

        Thanks for speaking on our behalf, but I think most accelerationists know a societal collapse has consequences. We’re just OK with suffering for 50 years so that future generations can prosper

        • @[email protected]
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          019 days ago

          suffering for 50 years

          In Europe, feudalism lasted 600 years last time, and only ended because a plague loosened up the nobility’s power over peasants. Vestiges of that old system endured in some parts of Europe for another 200 years after that, too.

          In some neofeudalist future, where the lords and nobles have access to incredibly invasive technology for monitoring the thoughts and actions of all people, for controlling even more links in the chain of the production of food or tools or weapons, that power structure may turn out to be even more entrenched than the last time around. It’s not far fetched to say that the next time strictly inherited class comes around, it becomes a permanent feature of all societies that follow.

          • @[email protected]
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            019 days ago

            To add, the Junkers in Germany were the party of the old aristocrats. The last Junker to do anything of note was Von Hindenburg, who gave Hitler the chancellorship. Been completely irrelevant on both ends of Germany ever since.

        • @[email protected]
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          020 days ago

          In the same vein, I appreciate your making that decision on behalf of me, my wife, and kids.

        • @[email protected]
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          020 days ago

          You presented no signs of deep. You’re relying on logical fallacies like Survivorship bias, where you assume society will re-emerge. There is no logical reason that would force societal collapse to follow previous patterns.

        • @[email protected]
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          19 days ago

          You’re okay with 50 years of widespread suffering to maybe have any society. But not okay with paying increased monthly taxes to guarantee a stable society.

          The Greek were right, democracy doesn’t work.

          • @[email protected]
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            019 days ago

            Who said I’m against increased taxes, wut

            Ofc liberals can win any argument when they get to make up what the opposing side thinks

            • @[email protected]
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              019 days ago

              You’re okay with more taxes, but you’re an accelerationist…

              What does accelerationism mean to you? And what benefits do you believe society gains from this?

              P.S. For the sake of transparency, I’m not liberal; but you can call me whatever you like.

              • nickwitha_k (he/him)
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                019 days ago

                FYI, there are accelerationists on both sides. The ones on the left are just unwitting allies of those on the right because their ideology is founded upon the belief that, contrary to all historical data, pushing society to a more miserable place will magically result in widespread class consciousness and a workers’ revolution.

                This is something that has never happened in any major way in recorded human history and never because of intentional suffering. Generally, the historical results have been genocide and/or centuries of oppression.

                • @[email protected]
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                  18 days ago

                  I’ve noticed that many of these cruel and reactionary ideologies are not based in any historical data nor science. This is used to be called hysteria.

                  They still haven’t answered either; so I can only assume they did not realize the contradiction between accelerationism and paying more taxes. Sad times we live in.

              • @[email protected]
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                19 days ago

                P.S. For the sake of transparency, I’m not liberal; but you can call me whatever you like.

                I’ve said this before to one of these types and then they started calling me a nazi. They’re unhinged evil morons.

        • nickwitha_k (he/him)
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          019 days ago

          We’re just OK with suffering for 50 years so that future generations can prosper

          Correction: You’re OK with inflicting widespread suffering and death, especially on the most vulnerable, for the faith-based belief that, contrary to historical evidence, it will result in a society more aligned with your ideological utopia.

        • @[email protected]
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          019 days ago

          Ahh, the ‘hooray for me and to hell with everyone else!’ mentality. Always the sign of a stable, sensible person.

            • @[email protected]
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              19 days ago

              Because you think you’ll ’endure the pain’ and then get to ‘build a better system’.

              But better odds are you’ll just die early on, and the system you dream of will never come to pass. You have gambling brain. ‘We’ll totally win next time! Just got to start over one more time!’

              It’s just so stupid.

    • @[email protected]
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      019 days ago

      People don’t understand that a power vacuum attracts the power hungry that will do whatever it takes to get it.

  • @[email protected]
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    020 days ago

    I suspect that it’s a mental error to imagine that there’s one ideal ideology to start with.

    For example, I think the founding fathers of America envisioned that the federal government would be smaller than the state governments. It’s not completely insane to imagine supporting true libertarians for a federal government and a progressive left wing party for a state government.

    But people aren’t that mentally flexible. If they vote right wing for federal government, they will never vote left wing for state government. And so, despite the fact that capitalism can solve certain problems quite efficiently, the fact that it’s utterly unsuited to solve our most common problems like making sure people have basic essentials means that libertarianism is a bit of a dead end, unless people can actually learn to think flexibly.

    This is one of the basic reasons why Political Compass Memes is such a bad idea. It encourages people to lock in their political identity, rather than remain flexible, and centrism isn’t the answer, either. We should be trying to use the right tool for the right job.

    • @[email protected]
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      020 days ago

      This is one of the basic reasons why Political Compass Memes is such a bad idea.

      No kidding. Not only do people fall on different parts of that two dimensional map depending on context (e.g. different positions on how much government support there should be for the arts versus for the sciences, how much government should regulate guns versus automobiles, etc.), but elevating these two axes above all the other unseen dimensions (ideological purity versus pragmatic compromise or versus consensus seeking, at what point process should yield to substance, the extent to which our institutions should have inertia that resists change, etc.), which causes people to oversimplify political issues into just those two dimensions.

      There are many dimensions, and each problem may call for a different solution that would fall into a different place in any given dimension than the solution to another problem.

    • @[email protected]
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      020 days ago

      Prior to the trump era I voted libertarian federal, dem/left for state govt for this reason. The problem with parties at the moment is there’s not just economic policy tied up into them but cultural and societal aspects that have to be weighed.