One thing I have to ask for those that say pedos should seek psychological/psychiatric treatment: do you even know a professional that won’t immediately call the cops if you say “i have sexual desires for kids”?
I wholly agree that this is something that should receive some form of treatment, but first the ones afflicted would have to know that they won’t be judged, labeled and exposed when they do so.
Things that happen inside your head = not illegal
Things that happen outside of your head = can potentially be illegal.
Because no one doing something 100% legal has ever had the cops called on them?
Ok but things that happen inside your head can make you a piece of shit
No, it does not. Many people struggle with
, as an example.
An intrusive thought is an unwelcome, involuntary thought, image, or unpleasant idea that may become an obsession, is upsetting or distressing, and can feel difficult to manage or eliminate.
Bad thoughts ≠ bad person.
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You responded to someone who actually took the time to educate you in a respectful manner, and your response is to throw a passive aggressive tantrum like a petulant child. Grow up dude.
What a wonderful day for a block user button.
Elon Musk would like to know your location
Bro everyone has dark intrusive thoughts, these folks just have ones that they’re wildly ashamed of and that they’re scared of not knowing how to control most of the time.
There are some who cross the threshold into action, but in all likelihood those are a comparable ratio to people who actually turn into serial killers compared to people who have intrusive thoughts about wanting to throttle someone out of frustration with them.
What are the cops going to do? Round here at least, thought crime isn’t yet a thing. It’d essentially be the same as if you said “Sometimes, I want to hurt people”. If you’re actually speaking with a medical professional, what you say is legally privileged information, and AFAIK for the US at least, that continues until there is reasonable belief that you will harm someone or commit a crime.
This totally glosses over the social aspect, but for any legitimate medical provider that shouldn’t be a problem. I don’t want anyone who needs help to be afraid of seeking it.
What are the cops going to do? Round here at least, thought crime isn’t yet a thing.
True, but anyone admitting to being a pedo is very likely to have something in their phones or computers that they really hope nobody ever sees, especially the cops (whether real CP, AI generated or drawn, and whether the possession is a crime, varies). An “anonymous” tip leading into an investigation could easily end up with jail time.
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But doctors are required to report anything that they identify as an immediate physical threat (e.g., to the patient or because of the patient). I found out recently that this is entirely subjective - different doctors have different ideas about what constitutes a threat. So, in a lot of ways, no, medical secrecy may not protect you if you tell the wrong doctor.
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You underestimate how sheltered, bureaucratic and extraordinarily hard it is for a medical practitioner to lose their license. I’ve seen literal convicted murderers who didn’t lose their license and were still licensed doctors (for a while) while in prison. I’ve seen rapists retain the medical license that allowed them access to their victims.
While that is true it would be enough for a therapist to say they see someone as a threat. As hate for pedophiles is on a rather high level i understand the fear however unwarranted it might be. Luckely at least in germany there is some kind of help group named somewhat like “Kein Täter werden” if i remember correctly. I think we could use more of that in more countries.
In the US, they will call the cops if they know you did something illegal, so it does require some form of secrecy from the patient.
People are attracted to whoever they’re attracted to. Saying someone should get psychiatric treatment for the sexual preferences in their own head sounds misguided, similar to “pray the gay away”
I’m very conflicted on this one.
Child porn one of those things that won’t go away if you prohibit it, like alcohol. It’ll just go underground and cause harm to real children.
AI child pornography images, as disturbing as they might be, would serve a “need”, if you will, while not actually harming children. Since child pornography doesn’t appear to be one of those “try it and you’ll get addicted” things, I’m genuinely wondering if this would actually reduce the harm caused to real children. If so, I think it should be legal.
Normalisation in culture has effects on how people behave in the real world. Look at Japan’s sexualization of women and minors, and how they have huge problems with sexual assault. It’s not about whether or not real children are getting hurt, it’s about whether it’s morally right or wrong. And as a society, we’ve decided that CP is very wrong as a moral concept.
Here’s the thing though, being too paranoid about normalization also makes the problem worse, because the truth is that these are people with severe mental problems, who in all likelihood want to seek professional help in most cases.
The problem is the subject is SO taboo that even a lot of mental health professionals will chase them off like rabid animals when the solution is developing an understanding that can lead to a clinical treatment plan for these cases.
Doing that will also help the CSAM problem too since getting people out of the alleyways and into professional help will shrink the market significantly, both immediately and overtime, reducing the amount of content that gets made, and as a result, the amount of children victimized to make that content.
The key factor remains, we have to stop treating these people like inhuman monsters that deserve death and far worse whenever they’re found. They’re sick in the head souls who need robust mental health care and thought management strategies.
None of that is an argument for normalisation via legalisation. Offenders and potential offenders should feel safe to seek help. Legalising AI-generated CSAM just makes it much less likely that they’ll see the need to seek help. In much the same way that rapists assume all men are rapists, because most men don’t make it clear that they’re not.
I’m sorry, should I make clear to every bank that I’m not a bank robber? Do I seriously have to tell every woman that I am not a rapist? That is a really bad argument. The vast VAST majority of men are not rapists, saying that it’s men’s fault because they don’t apologize or clarify that they’re not rapists is just… crazy
Where did you get any of that from? Why does any of what I said somehow imply telling women anything at all?
Get a fucking grip.
On the other hand, producing porn is illegal in India and they have huge problems with sexual assault too.
Producing - sure. But consuming?
I heard an anonymous interview with someone who was sickened by their own attraction to children. Hearing that person speak changed my perspective. This person had already decided never to marry or have kids and chose a career to that same end, low likelihood that kids would be around. Clearly, since the alternative was giving up on love and family forever, the attraction wasn’t a choice. Child porn that wasn’t made with children, comics I guess, was used to fantasize to prevent carrying through on those desires in real life.
I don’t get it, why anyone would be attracted to kids. It’s gross and hurtful and stupid. If people suffering from this problem have an outlet, though, maybe fewer kids will be hurt.
I’d go more in the direction of state sponsored generation and controlled access.
If you want legal unlimited access to AI generated CSM, you need to register with the state for it and in so doing also close off access to positions that would put you in situations where you’d be more able to act on it (i.e. employment in schools, child hospitals, church youth leadership, etc).
If doing that, and no children are harmed in the production of the AI generated CSM, then you have a license to view and possess (but not redistribute) the images registered with the system.
But if you don’t have that license (i.e. didn’t register as sexually interested in children) and possess them, or are found to be distributing them, then you face the full force of the law.
I think this idea rests on the false premise that people both need and have a right to pornography.
Many adults go about their lives without accessing it/getting off on it. It’s not a human need like food or shelter. So government isn’t going to become a supplier. Parallels could be made, I suppose, with safe injecting rooms and methadone clinics etc - but that’s a medical/health service that protects both the individual and the community. I don’t think the same argument could be made for a government sponsored porn bank.
You don’t think there’s an argument to be made that motivating people sexually attracted to children to self-report that attraction to the state in order to be monitored and kept away from children would have a social good?
I guess I just don’t really see eye to eye with you on that then.
This is such a touchy subject I find it difficult to articulate what society actually needs. We need a system where PEDOPHILES are able to receive the mental health they need before they become MOLESTERS.
But any time you say something about helping someone who is attracted to children the knee jerk reaction is always like “kill them. What you don’t want them dead? Are YOU a pedophile?” And I end up unable to convince them that helping them to not molest children by treating their mental health condition will actually help children not be molested. I really feel like this reactionary public opinion is causing people to go underground and is actually causing more children to be harmed.
That component I don’t have an issue with at all, actually. But providing government sanctioned ai porn? Unlikely
I’m thinking it should still be illegal but if they get charged for it, make it less severe than being charged with actual cp. This might naturally incentivize that industry to go for ai generated images instead of trafficking. Also I think if they took an image of an actual child and used AI to do this stuff it should be more severe than using a picture of a legal aged person to make cp.
It’s an ethical dilemma. It’s just an extremely controversial one. You really have to weigh in whether or not we should keep chaos if it means betterment for society as we advance forward.
I don’t think things should be as black and white as legal or not. I think the answer lies somewhere between something like decriminalizing drugs. Mostly illegal, but could benefit those who are genuinely seeking help. It would just have to take me a lot of convincing on an individual to need to seek out this material or else they are a danger to those around them.
There are many things still unclear about whether or not this will increase harm.
We don’t know how these images effect people and their behaviour. Many techbros online treat it like it’s a fact that media does not influence behaviour and thought processes, but if you look at the research this isn’t clear cut at all. And some research was able to show that specific media indeed does influence people.
Additionally, something rarely talked about, these images, stories and videos can be used to groom children and teenagers. Either to become victims and/or to become consumers themselves. This was a thing in the past and I bet it is still happening with Manga depicting Loli Hentai. Making these images legal will give groomers even better tool.
If Loli porn can turn people into pedophiles then I think humanity is having bigger issues
Isn’t AI art based on pre-existing content that’s been fed into the model?
Yes, but not in the way I think you’re implying, it is not trained on csam images. It can put the pieces together to varying degrees of success. If you ask for a Martian hedgehog in a tuxedo riding a motorcycle, it can create something looking like that without being trained on exactly that thing.
Martian hedgehog in a tuxedo riding a motorcycle
Just to prove your point I fed that into an AI (dreamshaper 8). no other prompts or anything, and this was the first image it generated.
Lol thanks. Not sure what’s marrtian but it got the rest pretty well!
The black and green colors match Marvin’s head, but it’s mostly missing red for his body
You can see the red on the hands on his motorcycle but most of it would be covered by the tuxedo
You can certainly argue that AI-generated CSAM does less harm but you can’t argue from that to legalising it because it still does a bucketload of harm. Consumers of CSAM are very likely to harm real children and normalising CSAM makes that much more likely.
This argument is a non-starter and people really need to stop pushing it.
Consumers of CSAM are very likely to harm real children and normalising CSAM makes that much more likely.
If any of that was objectively true, then yeah, I agree. Problem is, it looks like you just pulled that out of your ass.
You’re literally claiming a bunch of things as facts. Any spur ea to back that up?
Fuck them kids
There’s no conflict and no discussion, fuck these piece of shit!
I’m genuinely wondering if this would actually reduce the harm caused to real children. If so, I think it should be legal.
So tired of seeing this point made. Allowing animated or AI generated CSAM to exists openly and legally will not reduce violence against childern. It will increase it. It will normalized it.
You seem to think people who are willing and capable of commiting sexual violence against childern are going to do it less when theres a robust market of leaglly accessable CSAM.
It wont. it will instead create predator pipelines. It will take people with mild sexual disorders and histories of their own sexual assualts as childern and feed them CSAM. It will create more predators.
It will allow for communities of pedophiles to exist openly, findable on google searchs and advertised on regular porn sites.
Also the people who make AI generated CSAM are not going to be water marking it a AI genrated.
They are going to make it as real as possible. it will be indistinguishable to the naked eye and thus allow for Actual CSAM to masquarade and AI generated.
I could go on. But im not an expert on any of this.
You completely ignored the “state controlled generation and access” part of the argument. Experience with addictive drugs has shown us that tightly controlled access, oversight and possibly treatment can be a much better solution than just making it illegal. The truth is that we just don’t know if it would work the same with CSAM, but we do know that making it a taboo topic doesn’t work.
There’s no parallel here. Providing safe access to drugs reduces harm to the user and the harm done by the black-market drug trade. Normalising AI-generated CSAM might reduce the harm done to children during production of the material but it creates many more abusers.
The parallel only works if the “state controlled generation and access” to drugs was an open shop handing out drugs to new users and creating new addicts. Which is pretty much how the opiate epidemic was created by drug companies, pharmacists and doctors using their legitimate status for entirely illegitimate purposes.
Normalising AI-generated CSAM might reduce the harm done to children during production of the material but it creates many more abusers.
The problem with your argument is that you assume a bunch of stuff that we just don’t know, because we haven’t tried it yet. The closest thing we do know are drugs, and for them controlled access has proven to work really well. So I think it’s at least worth thinking about and doing limited real-world trials.
And I don’t think any sane person is suggesting to just legalize and normalize it. It would have to be a way for people to self-report and seek help, with conditions such as mandatory check-in/counseling and not being allowed to work with children.
You dont need to keep arguing with this person. There are a pro capitial chump.
He believes " sure capitalism sux but its the best system we have"
Go check out It their comment history.
It has all the feels of a libertarian.
The closest thing we do know are drugs, and for them controlled access has proven to work really well.
Controlled access to drugs does work well. But legalising AI-generated CSAM is much more analogous to the opiate crisis, which is an unmitigated disaster.
How so, if you don’t commercialize it? No legal actor would have an incentive to increase the market for CSAM, and it’s not like people who are not already affected would or could just order some for fun.
That would be a discussion for an entirely different thread. I would still disagree with you but the people arguing in favour of CSAM on this thread don’t think it should be a crime to make it using AI.
Again, how do you know this for a fact? I see your argument being feelings over facts
there is no parallel here
Says who?
Says me. And I explained exactly why. Feel free to engage with that argument.
There is a parallel here
You make a huge amount of claims, all as fact. How do you know that any of it is true? I’m not trying to defend rapists and pedophiles, I’m trying to think rationally and pragmatically about how to solve or at least improve this problem. Your reaction to it seems to be more emotional than rational and factual.
I’m trying to think rationally and pragmatically
Ahh yes the rational thought process which leads you to think a government is capable of Safely facilitating the production of csam. ???
They are unable to stop child poverty but totally capable to producing CSAM in a safe way…
Spare me Your fact finding mission.
Im not an expert or a social worker but i can tell But i can tell you that drug addiction and pedophilia are not the same.
To consider these two the same, as the original commentor did, is disgisting, offensive and ignorant.
There is no inherent victim with drug use. The same cannot be said pedophilia and Child sexual assualt.
While there is always a spectrum of people particpating in child victimization. The people who are the creators of the CSAM and those who participate in its distribution are not addicts. The are predators.
I’m not trying to defend rapists and pedophiles
Well you are…
So this does bring up an interesting point that I haven’t thought about - is it the depiction that matters, or is it the actual potential for victims that matters?
Consider the Catholic schoolgirl trope - if someone of legal age is depicted as being much younger, should that be treated in the same way as this case? This case is arguing that the depiction is what matters, instead of who is actually harmed.
Every country has different rules, standing on wikipedia.
Personally, I feel that if making completely fictitious depictions of child porn, where no one is harmed (think AI-generated, or by consenting adults depicting minors) was legal, it might actually prevent the real, harmful ones from being made, thus preventing harm.
At the same time, an argument could be made that increasing the availability of such a thing could land it in the eyes of a person who otherwise wouldn’t have seen it in the first place and problems could develop.
It could normalize something absurd and create more risks.
I’m no expert and I’d rather leave it to people who thoroughly understand such behaviors to determine what is and isn’t ultimately more or less detrimental to the health of society.
I just know how (anecdotally) pornography desensitizes a person until it makes more extreme things less bizarre and unnatural. I can’t help but imagine a teenager who would have otherwise developed a more healthy sexuality stumbling on images like that and becoming desensitized.
It’s definitely something that needs some serious thought.
“I’m no expert and I’d rather leave it to people who thoroughly understand such behaviors to determine what is and isn’t ultimately more or less detrimental to the health of society.”
One of the big problems with addressing this problem is that NOBODY thoroughly understands these behaviors. They are so stigmatized that essentially nobody voluntarily admits to having pedophilic urges and scientists can only study those who actually act on them and harm children. They are almost certainly not a representative sample of the entire population of pedophiles, and this severely limits our ability to study the psychology of the population as a whole and what differentiates the rapists among them from the non-rapists.
I think Japan would make a really good case study. Childlike aesthetics and behaviors are strongly sexualized in Japan. They also produce the most simulated CSAM per capita with few laws restricting production. Actual child pornography wasn’t made illegal until 1999. They still sell photo books of tweens in swimsuits and stuff in Japan. That, and lolicon, which is basically hentai with kids in it.
There isn’t the same stigma against attraction to children, and we see that some 15-20% of the Japanese male population holds some aesthetic preferences that most westerners would consider pedophilic.
I think we’d probably see similar numbers in America if we could cut though the stigma, which some people would panic over, but if anything we should be relieved that despite such numbers, actual sexual abuse of children is very rare.
I mean, the writing is on the wall already. Nothing in the West is more sexualized than youth, we just like to pretend that 18 is some magical age where you looked completely different the day before your birthday or something, and ignore that puberty comes a lot earlier than that.
What really matters is the social norms surrounding these things. We shouldn’t care if a 40 year old man thinks a 15 year old girl is attractive, we should care if he tries to do anything about that attraction, because the latter is a conscious choice that does harm, while the former is more complex matter of human sexual response.
Most of what you’re repeating about porn “normalizing” things and “desensitizing” viewers is straight out of the puritan handbook. There is evidence that men who overconsume porn and don’t have a healthy sex life can fall into self-destructive patterns, but porn consumption doesn’t work like a drug. It’s not like the more you consume the more hardcore of content you desire, or that being exposed to certain types of porn will create new preferences that you wouldn’t otherwise have had. This is just long-standing anti-sex-work propaganda that tries to liken pornography to narcotics.
People who consume CSAM are already into that kind of thing. Seeing CSAM isn’t going to turn anyone into a pedophile just as playing GTA isn’t going to turn anyone into a hardened street criminal. The goal should be to protect children, not to censor any content that sexualizes youth, because that really is a slippery slope. More on that here: https://nypost.com/2010/04/24/a-trial-star-is-porn/
Yeah, valid points, but it’s not gonna be easy to tell, in practice. Doing a proper scientific test is likely going to be unethical for obvious reasons, so we’re left to wonder if the cons outweigh the pros or not.
Thanks for sharing that link. I hated reading through it, but it answered the question haha…
I don’t really have strong feelings about it but I do think I lean towards agreeing with you.
How I see it: creating fake child porn makes it harder for authorities to find the real ones.
That’s a good point. On the flip side, I remember there was a big deal about trying to flood the rhino horn market with fakes a few years ago. I can’t find anything on how that went, but I wonder if it could have that effect as well.
Also makes it harder for offenders to find the real ones!
In America at least, people often confuse child pornography laws with obscenity laws, and they do end up missing the point. Obscenity laws are a violation of free speech, but that’s not what a CSAM ban is about. It’s about criminalizing the abuse of children as thoroughly as possible. Being in porn requires consent, and children can’t consent, so even the distribution or basic retention of this content violates a child’s rights.
Which is why the courts have thrown out lolicon bans on First Amendment grounds every time it’s attempted. Simulated CSAM lacks a child whose rights could be violated, and generally meets all the the definitions of art, which would be protected expression no matter how offensive.
It’s a sensitive subject that most people don’t see nuance in. It’s hard to admit that pedophilia isn’t a criminal act by itself, but only when an actual child is made a victim, or a conspiracy to victimize children is uncovered.
With that said, we don’t have much of a description of the South Korean man’s offenses, and South Korea iirc has similar laws to the US on this matter. It is very possible that he was modifying real pictures of children with infill or training models using pictures of a real child to generate fake porn of a real child. This would introduce a real child as victim, so it’s my theory on what this guy was doing. Probably on a public image generator service that flagged his uploads.
The intent is to get off on fucking children, how you make that happen shouldnt matter
So would that include written stories?
If we decide that nothing else matters but protecting children, then protecting children will be the only thing that matters anymore. That’s not a reasonable outcome.
Considering every other aspect of this is being argued in this thread to exhaustion, I just want to say it’s wild they caught him since it says he didn’t distribute it.
He probably just used a cloud service that wasn’t private.
Yeah he probably wasn’t generating locally. Seems like that would be pretty hard to detect if you don’t distrubute.
The AI was harmed. We need to protect the AI.
Normalising CSAM does harm. Crap argument.
Is it Child Sexual Abuse Material if there are no children involved?
“Anime should also be banned”, -
- “All anime characters in anime should show passport with their date of birth”.There are billions of children. HTH
I think you responded to the wrong comment, because while it is true that there are 2.4B people under the age of 18 alive today, it doesn’t appear to have any relevance to what you were replying to.
Only if you assume that the only children harmed by CSAM are those used to produce CSAM.
Consumers of CSAM are (actual or potential) perpetrators of abuse. Normalising it is not an option.
If the man did not distribute the pictures, how did the government find out? Did a cloud service rat him out? Or spyware?
He was found extorting little girls with nude pics he generated of them.Edit: So I guess he just generated them. In that case, how’d they become public? I guess this is the problem if you don’t read the article.
Why the fuck isn’t that the headline? Jesus, that’s really awful and changes everything.
Because that was another case. Extortion and blackmail (and in this case would count as production of cp as would be the case if you would draw after a real child) are already illegal. On this case we simply dont have enough information.
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(Apologies if I use the wrong terminology here, I’m not an AI expert, just have a fact to share)
The really fucked part is that at least google has scraped a whole lot of CSAM as well as things like ISIS execution bids etc and they have all this stuff stored and use it to do things like train the algorithms for AIs. They refuse to delete this material as they claim that they just find the stuff and aren’t responsible for what it is.
Getting an AI image generator to produce CSAM means it knows what to show. So why is the individual in jail and not the tech bros?
That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how diffusion models work. These models extract concepts and can effortlessly combine them to new images.
If it learns woman + crown = queen
and queen - woman + man = king
it is able to combine any such concept together
As Stability has noted. any model that has the concept of naked and the concept of child in it can be used like this. They tried to remove naked for Stable Diffusion 2 and nobody used it.
Nobody trained these models on CSAM and the problem is a dilemma in the same way a knife is a dilemma. We all know a malicious person can use a knife for murder, including of children Yet society has decided that knives sufficient other uses that we still allow their sale pretty much everywhere.
This can be used by pedophiles is used as an argument to ban cryptography… I wonder if someone will apply that to the generative AI.
Depends how profitable it is.
If it can replace workers no, if it threatens the big players like Disney yes.
Here you go bud, no misunderstanding at all. The image generators are trained on CSAM, as I said.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/ap-study-developers-thorn-canada-b2467386.html
Editing this reply to say that I was in fact right and I did not have any fundamental misunderstanding of anything. And the database in question here is called LAIOn and contains 6 billions images scraped from the web, including CSAM images.
Thanks for that. As I said, I’m not big into how AI works, so not surprised I got that wrong. The databases of everything that has come across the clear web are still there though and are available for use by people with access.
What are you referring to by “the database of everything that has come across the clear web”?
See this new article. The image database they looked into is called LAIOn. There are others though of course. I don’t mean google crawlers, I mean image databases for training image generators.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/ap-study-developers-thorn-canada-b2467386.html
NSA servers? jkjk, kinda
I think they mean Google’s web-crawler index, but I don’t think that the index works that way… well, on the other hand, they do cache some stuff.
Getting an AI image generator to produce CSAM means it knows what to show
Not necessarily. Part of AI is blending different concepts. AI trained on images of regular children and nude adults in principle should be able to produce underage nudity. This is a side effect of the intelligence in the AI
Pedos gonna pedo…
And by the way, kudos to fediverse instances, you do a crazy job. That’s the only good thing of this AI techno, detecting such crap and obliterate it. I don’t care about false positive. if there’s a false positive, OP could still try to defend their case if necessary.
My god there are way too many comments in here trying to normalize pedophilia. Disgusting. Pathetic.
These are people that need serious psychiatric care, not acceptance or to be included in the LGBTQ+ community. There is absolutely nothing to compare between them and any group within the LGBTQ+ community. Nothing.
Combatting CP is a hard enough task for the poor bastards that have to do it. There does not need to be AI produced images in the mix.
Lemmy, do better.
I think pedophiles should be treated with compassion, as being a pedophile doesn’t make someone a sexual predator.
IMO the stigma against pedophiles worsens their mental state and could push them to become sexual predators. This is just a guess though.
However, I do think “treatment” of pedophilia with generated CP should only be tried after conducting proper research into the actual effectiveness of it (maybe with general sex offenders and regular porn). In the end I think the top priority should be to minimize the amount of pedophiles who are also predators.
The stigma against racism and sexism I guess a are also making people want to hurt these groups?
I believe racism and sexism are choices, while I think most pedophiles would prefer not to be pedophiles. If a pedophile doesn’t hurt anyone, why should people want to hurt him?
Thanks chatbot
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Having a hard time finding the evidence you mention, got a citation? First few articles I saw were actually advising against blanket pornography bans.
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I didn’t suggest shit, so please don’t put words in my mouth. Thanks for the citations though.
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Maybe I could’ve written it more clearly, but I thought it was pretty obvious we shouldn’t try treating pedophiles this way if research shows it doesn’t work.
Not my post, dude. Look at the people you are replying to.
Not that I think they should be included in LGBTQ+ but as someone who is bisexual I feel they’re not as far from us as you seemingly believe. Why wouldn’t we compare them? Both are sexual attractions that deviate from the norm. A pedophile didn’t choose to be a pedophile anymore than I chose to be bi.
Growing up in a conservative household and town was a miserable experience for me. I hated myself, didn’t want to accept it, and felt utterly alone. Now think about how much worse it must be to realize you’re attracted to children. You have zero allies, you have zero people you can talk to, and a lot of people hate you merely for existing and/or want you dead. From where I stand their experience echoes my experience being LBGTQ+ quite heavily. Except over my lifetime LBGTQ+ acceptance grew quite rapidly and my husband was the light at the end of the tunnel. But pedophiles will never get that, probably ever. I feel nothing but sympathy for their situation.
And what “serious psychiatric care” do you even think there is for it? Unless you also believe in gay conversion camps, we have nothing. We don’t even really know how sexuality actually works in the brain, we definitely aren’t anywhere close to being able to treat it.
Excuse me what? I’m pansexual and fucking what? I’m nothing like a kiddy diddler. I don’t revel in the agony inflicted onto a child. These people get off on violence and destroying people. These victims are never the same again. That’s why parents catching someone doing this to a child will kill the perpetrator and nobody would fault them. Pedos are criminally insane if anything.
Why wouldn’t we compare them?
Really? What part of your sexuality, or mine, involves raping children? Nothing, right? One step back, what part of you being bisexual or my being trans involves harming anyone? That’s right, nothing.
I don’t have the answer of how to deal with those that are attracted to children. But to suggest psychiatric care for those who have serious pathology is akin to gay conversion camps is gross.
This is not some philosophical debate. Stop playing into the hands of bigots who are actively trying to paint LGBTQ+ folks, especially trans people at the moment, as “groomers” and “pedos”.
We are not associated or comparable with pedophiles in any way, shape or form—full stop.
Tf are you talking about, unless being gay involves raping men, being pedo also doesn’t involve raping children. Even as a cishet non-pedo you will often encounter situations where acting on some attraction you feel would be anywhere from morally questionable to straight up illegal, and most of us manage to deal with that just fine. Of course that’s going to be tougher for someone whose entire experience consists of that, rather than just part of it, but nothing about being pedo forces you to become a child-raping piece of shit.
Of course psychiatric care is important, but the point the other commenter was making is that it’s currently impossible to change anyone’s attraction, so it’s not a pathology that can be “cured” in this way. Any psychiatric care currently has to be aimed at helping people deal with being pedo without acting on it and also not developing any other psychological afflictions because of suppressing their attraction. Trying to “cure” the attraction itself would indeed be akin to gay conversion therapy: there’s no scientific evidence it works, and it’s going to do more harm than good.
Most people in jail for abusing children are not pedophiles, but normal rapists and kids unfortunelately just happen to be easy targets. Even most pedophiles have morals. They know what they like is wrong and they wouldn’t want to hurt anyone. Just like most men aren’t rapists despite being turned on by women.
Just imagine being born as someone with these urges. What a shitty fucking hand you’ve been dealt and as if that’s not bad enough, people want to murder you just for coming out and asking for help.
Consensual non-consent folks be like
If people stopped blurring consent lines that’d be great. Either you consent or you don’t. Fantasizing about rape legitimized incel’s attitude that women want to be raped. Nobody who is kentwlly healthy fantasizes about it. Therapy, not cnc.
Is that opinion or fact?
I’m with you. Lot of goofs in this thread. Fucking hell.
Im sorry, they make it make sense by using disease. They can’t just say paedophiles are bad because they dont want to beleive in ‘bad’. It is a philosophy debate though, its evil versus sick. They’ll agree you’re not evil but you’ll get lumped into sick.
I’m trying to be better by not treating all pedophiles as child-abusers-in-waiting. Humans are capable of not acting on base immoral instincts.
Right, not everyone who wants to kill someone is a murderer.
Removed by mod
Excellent work, no notes.
ITT - Lemmy supports the pedos
Can’t have any nuanced discussion here! Glad to see people such as yourself engaging in reductionism and shutting down thinking, because all interactions online have to be boiled down to five words TL;DR pithy sound bites.
Leave the shit on Twitter, we can do better here.
I actually typed out a more lengthy response to someone here already, read more responses/viewed the vote counts, and then wrote this top level comment pointing out how backwards this community’s views are. No one is directly supporting assaulting children, but as I wrote elsewhere: “why do we value the sexual gratification of pedos higher than the potential safety of children?”
Who the heck is proposing we value that? Everyone is saying we value the safety of real children which may entail keeping artificial CP legal.
Also it’s a victimless crime so punishments dealt out are criticized heavily, and for good reason.
Isn’t the point that Noone was harmed and that you shouldn’t get in prison for stuff that harmed nobody. I mean ew its disgusting but not worth jailing someone for it…
You clearly have chosen not to understand the assignments people are making in this thread. Either that or you’re choosing to misrepresent them. Literally nobody is supporting sexual assault of children or anyone else. But hey, don’t let that stop you from gloating about how morally superior you are.
Yeah a lot of the comments, and votes in this thread are really gross.
Yeah, I thought he whole MAP bullshit died out, but apparently it’s alive and well on lemmy. It’s pretry sad.
Comments in this thread makes me laugh especially the ‘its not pedophila’ parts LOOOOOOOOOOOL
