PLEASE CHECK THIS OUT. Our own Aeronmelon is going through some shit at the moment and could use some help. Check it out here and consider an upvote or a comment to push it into activity. Sorry, not something I do often or will be spamming. But I care about my friend and if I can get a couple more eyes on his situation then I’m going to try to do what I can. (Last one I promise. Just twice. Not going to spam but dude is a big part of the Lemmy community, especially with Trek, and he deserves the help. And to the mods, if this doesn’t fit and you want to remove? Go for it. I completely understand it and I am sorry)
Edit: Oh wait I’m the mod here. Well, I say it is fine
I actually believe in rehabilitation for pedophiles. This absolutely floors some people. Im sure some of you will not understand this post either.
Pedophiles do not deserve death.
That is not how we stop the problem. Pedophilia is a symptom of a more systemic issue and if these people have a massive fear of being lynched, guess what will not happen? They will not reach out to mental health professionals or crisis counsellors. Plenty of people have a specific form of OCD that pushes intrusive, unwanted, pedophilic thoughts into their head. Plenty are just ashamed and want to stop but have no one to speak to.
If someone has these thoughts and has not acted on them, I see no reason why they need to be killed other than you think too emotionally and not logically.
If you want to take this rhetoric you had better be willing to back it up and actually look at the “what if I actually took this stance rather than using it for a metaphor to platform my cause on?”
Okay but if I’m not talking about killing pedophiles, how will I virtue signal to the rest of my Klan?
And if we’re actually stopping pedophilia, then why the hell did I bother having twenty kids?
-every american
The easier case for this argument is terrorism. After it was established that terrorists were so awful that they didn’t deserve the normal legal and human rights, and that the government deserved huge budgets and exceptions to it’s normal restraints to get them, we now have any use of force that threatens the status quo being treated as terrorism.
Same principal, but easier for those who get really stuck on the pedophile thing.
A lot of gringos get stuck on the terrorism thing too :/
…Are Nazis terrorists?
Not if there are fascists in power. The word terrorist is now the most flexible word in the English language, and that is by design. 9/11 seared the word into the brains of every American and made it evoke all of their worst fears, making it a very useful tool for those who rule by fear.
What are you asking?
There’s a difference between refusing to rehabilitate someone and it just being impractical to run them all through the self-improvement engine. I would prefer if Nazis were rehabilitated where possible, but I’m not that upset if we never got the chance to either.
If my mom and my girlfriend were both dangling off either side of a bridge and I could only save one of them, and my mom was a Nazi, then I’m saving my girlfriend.
I agree, but it’s not only that. It’s also that actual pedophiles are mentally ill people, and I don’t think torturing them will help anyone. It’s important to me to recognize that the reason I’m not a pedophile is because I’m lucky enough to have avoided that disorder, that it has nothing to do with any moral triumph on my part. I’m hopeful we’ll one day have the technology to recognize these kinds of flaws and treat them before anyone gets hurt. In the mean time I think it’s better to encourage them to be honest and seek help rather than demonize them, because abuse is more likely to occur if they aren’t receiving treatment.
Been saying this for a long time. Nobody chooses who or what they are attracted to, but they don’t ever stop to think about the fact that these people aren’t choosing to be into children.
I can agree to the major stake on your claim about mental illness. And I’m sure that definitely exists and is a factor for a number of people…
However, you’re dismissing two other major categories and groups of people: power and taboo.
Its been studied and reported that many rapes/sexual assault happen, not solely for sexual attraction/gratification but to dominate. To have power over another. Not a mental illness or attraction, just a want to exert power.
Another group would be those into the taboo. The exotic chaser types. The thrill is in doing something forbidden.
And when those two groups collide with someone who has a lot of money and live consequence free, you end up with Epstein. Rich people who want to do something forbidden, to exert sadistic power over others. Its not a mental illness, its not an attraction. Its because they can.
This is the context in which it’s relevant to recognize that Jeffrey Epstein was not a pedophile by the actual definition of the word. He and his kind have something else wrong with them that you already recognized: they are sadistic and wish to exert power over others. I can’t armchair diagnose them, but I do know that something is wrong with their brains to make them want to hurt people. A normal, healthy human exhibits empathy so strongly that it’s even applied to members of other species and inanimate objects.
I don’t mean that we need to have any sympathy for them or any other abusers, or that our disgust with them is wrong. But intellectually I think it’s important to know the reason I don’t hurt people for fun is because I don’t want to in the first place. I could just as easily have ended up like them if I had fewer cooperative social instincts intact. We have to restrict their freedom for public safety, but actively punishing them for their flaws is as cruel and pointless as beating an aggressive dog.
I wish more of our society looked at it in such a rational way. The point of imprisonment should be either rehabilitation or removal from society. And we should be clear about what works in which cases. Permanent imprisonment should definitely be on the cards for some kinds of people, simply because they will never be fit to be let out. But people get this all muddled up with outrage, hatred, an emotional need for othering, punishment, justice, retribution. And then further muddled with the flip side of forgiveness, of having paid a debt to society, of rehabilitation through religion, of the kind of misplaced empathy that assumes we’re all the same on the inside. Of course there’s a whole bunch of political and financial incentives to maintain the confusion.
i just want to point out that permanent imprisonment also doesn’t have to be particularly bad for the imprisoned person, we could totally just “imprison” people in a quite nice 4-room apartment and let them live as normal lives as possible while keeping them separated from others.
Let them get groceries delivered, have normal (if monitored) subscriptions and internet access, and go on walks with an actually friendly warden who just keeps an eye on them while actively trying to make the person feel normal.even nordic prisons which are famous for being not inhumane are still quite terrible places to be, largely because we can’t be arsed to spend more money than what we consider bare minimum to not qualify as torture.
But people get this all muddled up with outrage, hatred, an emotional need for othering, punishment, justice, retribution.
It’s understandable and a good thing that we have these feelings because they evolved to motivate us to be able to kill or expel bad actors from our social groups. Without those feelings we’d just be enabling everyone’s abuse all the time. It’s not like I don’t get mental images of going all John Wick on bad guys. We just have to set aside our feelings and consider what results in the best societal outcomes, regardless of what seems fair or what would feel good in the moment.
Didn’t a study find that a good chunk of the population is sadistic? Something like 40% of subjects sverved to hit a turtle with their car iirc.
They went out of their way to hurt animals, I hope they get prostate cancer, and rot inside the prison that is their body.
Now, what if a desire for power over others and the desire to engage in the forbidden (with no executive function to regulate it) were also due to mental illness?
A similar one I used to see a lot on Reddit was Europeans saying racism is bad except when it’s against Romani people. Like people would unironically just say shit like “no, they’re actually all bad.”
Yeah I had a conversation with a redditor where they were all like “You don’t understand what it’s like to actually live near them” and it just made me feel like I was talking to Uncle Cletus about Dominicans or some shit. It’s all the same mind virus everywhere.
Two groups of people I can’t stand: people who judge someone purely for where they’re from, and the Dutch.
schreeuwt in nederlands
the I’m not racist but…
A problem with those discussions is a lack of nuance and knowledge.
You’ll get Americans, who’d hear some western Europeans complain about ‘gypsies’, assume they’re racist against the Roma, not realising they’re often talking about Irish travellers who aren’t Roma at all. Not sure if the latter is racism, in the strictest sense. Invariably still bigotry though.
You’ll get Eastern Europeans complaining about Roma like they’re all the criminals, who are entirely oblivious to the fact that they themselves interact with Roma on regular basis without any issue. If you spend a bit of time in Eastern Europe, you’ll soon realise that a lot of Roma pass as non-Roma. They often aren’t considered Roma or don’t openly call themselves Roma, so much so that some will even vote for a virulent racist like Orban.
Then there’s the Western Europeans, who may have had bad experiences with a Roma gang (which unfortunately is a thing), who become incredibly defensive when you point out they shouldn’t stereotype all Roma and end up pretending anti-Romani racism isn’t a huge problem. Anti-Romani racism like when a member of Orban’s Fidesz party comes out with statements calling Roma animals and describing them as a problem that needs to be solved by any means (I’m quoting almost literally).
In my experience, European racism and bigotry really is far more complex, due to the lack of a melting pot, especially outside larger cities. Far more intersectionality and added classism, nationalism, regionalism, etc. Sometimes people will hate you if you’re from the wrong side of the river, and I’m only half joking.
I’m so tired of it, that once my parents die, I’ll be moving to a large cosmopolitan city. Things are better there. Suppose that’s not so different in the US.
Sorry for the long comment.
Yeah, that always blew my mind. I guess it because Americans dont care to educate themselves on European culture, so Europeans just kinda have free reign to be racist and generally not be judged online as long as the Americans don’t know ehat they’re talking about. Thats just my guess though, im a stupid american who doesnt know european culture lol
A lot of it is the language barrier. Your idiots speak English. Ours often don’t or not well enough for you to understand their stupid comments. The idea that everyone in Europe speaks good english is a myth. Our idiots can often barely speak one language let alone two.
However, racism and bigotry in Europe is often different to US racism, so you can end up looking like a fool if you wade in to the discussion without knowing the details. There’s no point arguing with pigeons anyway, you may win the argument, but you’ll still end up with shit in your hair.
Also: even if you did have a phD in European bigotry, as an American you’re not going to win hearts and minds lecturing non-Americans on racism, democracy or free speech. Especially now when the boil of American predjudice has been popped and poured into a seat behind the Resolute desk.
I was leaving my grocery store when I saw a person calling for people to sign petitions. They had a variety of things to sign from lowering property taxes to “ensure pedophiles are jailed for at least 80% of their sentence length before opportunity of parole.” Republicans at the time were throwing the word around in relation to the LGBTQ. The core idea of this post clicked so hard in my head I think my wife heard it.
I always feel like they are hurrying to get me to sign when I start actually reading everything it says. It’s such emotional manipulation to get you to sign for something like the pedophiles should serve 80% of the sentence, but you read it and there is so much more about redefining what crimes are considered pedophilia.
Like, these are not simple 1 sentence things. Politics is not the simple solutions that people like to taut and quick and easy. Things need to be thought through thoroughly, written clearly, and extremely well defined.
I feel like the people who respond to “common sense solutions” are so unfathomably dumb not to realize that if it were so simple or easy it would have been done already. Or that it actually already exists and they just don’t know about it.
“Common sense solutions” come pre-packaged and pre-approved so no extra thought is necessary.
The world is complicated and over simplifying it is doing yourself a disservice.
Most of the people trying to get signatures in public try not to waste too much time on a single person.
But yeah you also have to look out because there are definitely people doing this kind of manipulation.
One of the most important questions you can ask yourself when you start thinking like this is: will further punishment help? Added bonus for actually looking up if it will, because it turns out there’s research on it.
I don’t want pedophiles to suffer nearly as much as I want them to not hurt children. And if not hurting children levels are the same I’d rather the justice system be fully and wholly dedicated to rehabilitation and taking the most possible care of its wards.
There’s been an obsession in the past decade or two with crime and punishment and it’s become bipartisan and terrifying. It’s part of the fascistic milleu where there’s a growing cruelty and “us vs them” thinking in all levels of society.
There is a tragically high recidivism rate for sexual predators, which is probably the best argument for long sentences: there aren’t many opportunities to abuse children in prison.
Though the American rehabilitation system is pretty weak in general, other nations have had much better results. Norway has a sex crime recidivism rate below 10% (vs 67% in the US).
So the solution still isn’t punishment?
Yeah, the solution is to have a functioning rehabilitation system. But in the US, with the system we currently have, it doesn’t seem to make a difference how long you keep them there. We actually have a higher recidivism from our rehabilitation than from doing nothing at all.
So, in order of effectiveness:
- Effective rehabilitation
- Nothing
- American prison system
The only benefit to a long sentence is that it reduces the number of years they can spend harming children, though there’s a fairly high chance they abuse fellow inmates instead, who could then become abusers themselves once they get out, so the whole thing is fucked and stupid.
Punishment as deterrence has some validity too. But past a certain point, amping up the punishment isn’t going deter any more people, and could interfere with rehabilitation. Most US sentences are well beyond that point though. Restorative justice is also important, but shouldn’t put the perpetrator in anything like an indentured servitude situation where they’d be unable to support themselves.
I think the value of punishment is in empowering the victim or making an example.
The value to the victim in punishment is in reclaiming agency. If the state punishes someone, the victim gets nothing. It’s a waste. Maybe less than a waste; the opportunity for personal revenge for a personal wrong is lost.
Some things will not be deterred by consequences, imposed or otherwise, and the victim can’t/won’t take agency from revenge, so punishing them is absurd.
Sometimes you just need a fucker gone. Nazis and stuff. It’s not about punishment, unless you’re trying to deter. It’s about not having that in the world and being unable or unwilling to spend the resources to fix the problem in a more wholesome way.
Even then, is the value worth the cost? The mechanisms of organized punishment and deprivation existing? The culture of interpersonal violence? Generally no. But the discourse about ‘crime’ ignores literally fucking all of this.
Yep, that where I’m at. Not going to bother with justifications, I see someone evil, they deserve to die. For too long people have tried to maintain the moral high ground against monsters, but the revelation is that you really don’t have to argue against them. There is no reason to tolerate them. In todays society, if you havent seen the error of your ways already, why should it become my job to educate you? And if you need education to correct your mistakes, then thats an ongoing issue. If you have to be told now that its not ok to bomb hospitals because the people are brown, then youll have to be told 20 years from now that its not ok to bomb hospitals because the people are jewish.
If you are willing to be evil, no moral grandstanding or truthful argument will stop you. Don’t educate nazis, and racists, and fascists, remove them as a problem for the now and for future generations.
ahem legally
they deserve
Uh, feel like you’re missing my point.
I think I might be too. I see two points, it seems you’re implying the victim should be allowed to seek revenge, which I personally dont care about so long as the revenge is done, but I understand that we differ.
More importantly, you were musing on the idea that the value in criminal systems lays in removing a chronic issue from the populace. In that I agree, although I would add that the act is self-justifying, and that you need not be personally wronged to be justified in removing a problem.
Edit: self-justifying in the sense that when people find out what you have done, there should be no legal or societal represcussions and you shouldn’t even have to explain your reasoning. No different from squishing a bug, no one is likely to stop you.
I think revenge only has value as revenge if it comes from the victim.
‘Evil’ is kinda stupid
And ‘removing’ is what you so when you can’t fix. Like, don’t replace if you can recycle. If youre just murdering everyone who you don’t like, I think that’s bad.
I think revenge only has value as revenge if it comes from the victim.
I’m not sure if it does even then…there are so many accounts of people taking revenge and it not giving them any sort of actual ‘relief’ or closure long-term after all.
Certainly not always, but it never does when the state does it.
Ah, nevermind then. It seems we have complete disagreement.
‘revenge’ is valued through the nature of the act. If you know that wronging someone is to have consequences, that acts as a deterrant. But more importantly, it artificially imposes a moral imperitive. You wrong someone, you must be for your misdeed. To allow the victim to participate in the act is as best meaningless, their satisfaction is not why justice is being dealt. At worst, it justifies their darker impulses and could corrupt otherwise good people.
Yeah, “evil” is anyone i disagree with. I have achieved my views through discussion with many people from many walks of life, and through witnessing societal interaction, and by self analyzing intensely. I am fully prepared to defend my views as just and correct, as well as give logical reasoning behind why my views are correct. If my views were deemed to be incorrect, i wouldnt have them. In other words, if you dont want to be deemed evil, stop making objectively bad decisions.
Yep, removing is what you do to things you cant fix. We probably could fix these people, open up their brains and physically reprogram them to remove things like racism, sexism, and othering. But people seem unwilling to actually fix the problem, so more dramatic steps must be taken in the short term until we have a more stable society that is able and willing to engage in progressivism.
If youre just murdering everyone who you don’t like, I think that’s bad I see where youre coming from, but you have to understand that the people I dont like a nazis, rapists, and facsists. If it wasnt justified to to murder them, they wouldnt be on that list.
And again, its not that I want to murder anyone, and im certainly not planning to do so unless someone attempts to infringe upon my rights as an American citizen or rights as a human being. But someone needs to remove these people because fixing them has proven to not be a viable strategy.
Prisoner’s rights are human rights too.
No but see I dont consider prisoners human so its fine.
Dehumanizing people - it’s not just for Nazis anymore!
Well, scratch a liberal…
Were trading slogans? Is cruelty the point?
Usually. Down with the bourbons!
Edit: just the dynasty! We dont have to do anything to the other kind!
Now we have two problems.
The dynasty not the liquor. The liqour can stay.
Good god is this frustrating to read lol
At least great example of teaching on OP’s part. Calm, explanatory, respectful
Trump may not have committed any unique crime, but I think he should get a special punishment if he is ever brought to justice.
The evil people of this world need to know that they WILL get consequences for their crimes. They need to feel it, it needs to be so traumatic, that they beg others not to do it too.
Trump doesn’t need any special punishment; he needs the prescribed punishment for the treason of which he is guilty.
Only a court can determine guilt. Treason by definition in the US requires a court. He should have been charged with the many crimes he was accused of. But the us is a country without laws, as it was long before he took office.
The bad crime is oppression of someone else. That’s it. Anything else, rehabilitate. You willfully abuse and oppress someone from living their life? Dead.
I’m so tired of these ghouls getting off Scott free in the name of healing. I want them all to face justice.
That would include like half my family and most of my co-workers. Chill a bit.
Kira is evil, except for the killings I approve of. xD
…but three lefts do
you can’t rehab any of the big global names in unpunished crimes against humanity. Literally nobody can prove me wrong if they can’t even be detained temporarily
I don’t think the OP is trying to say that we shouldn’t use violence against active oppressors or as self-defence. It’s that we shouldn’t establish rules for revoking someone’s personhood so that it becomes okay to abuse them.
Its a matter of power, not crimes though. Grab Adolf Hitler when he’s just some asshole homeless guy who likes to draw badly, and he’s probably still gonna be an asshole, but you could totally make him a non-bigoted asshole.
Grab him in the bunker, its not worth it, and killing him has a lot more value to the world than his meth addled ass ever could.
It seems that many pedophiles go for suicide-by-prison-leader by boasting about their crimes and having their head bashed in. Or maybe that’s a very small minority.
SPAMMING OVER 30 COMMUNITIES IS INAPPROPRIATE.
