Perhaps teaching children to never question authority was a bad idea
This isn’t even a cop thing, though I have no doubt the rate would be higher if empirically tested; cops tend to be very Conventional Morality in the sense that If Legal -> Moral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
TL;DR: 65% of people would kill someone if given an order to do so (and some plausible deniability).
My money’s on it being 70-80% for US cops, maybe higher. My only real metric on this is the one guy I knew who made an arrest he was ordered to that he (should have) known wasn’t legal and shrugged his shoulders about retelling the incident, saying “I’m a soldier (he was an Army veteran); I follow orders.”
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Did you just not read the Wikipedia article or what?
Maybe you’re implying shooting people running away is common in US law enforcement?
Don’t be glib; state your point with some conviction.
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Naw, the vast majority of cops never pull their trigger anywhere other than the shooting range.
As for paid leave after a shooting, are you implying you’d rather a cop who just shot someone be back out on the street immediately with zero investigation first?
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They’re not your protectors; you fell for an LAPD slogan.
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I kinda doubt you want the cops to kill 0 people ever; are you saying you’re good with them waiting around for the killer to get bored at Uvalde?
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Once again as soon as you are hit with a point that contradicts your stance, you leap to the Red Herring. Presumably, this is because you don’t actually care that much about the topic and are just toying with it.
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Indeed and the MAGA fucknuts would do the same for Mango Mussolini.
Enablers must die
The point still stands, but did Hitler never kill even one person with his own two hands? Did he not find the time to go down to a camp and kill a few innocents himself? Seems like a thing would be bound to happen.
He was in the military in WW1, so he may have killed a few people.
Some historians seem to think he would’ve mentioned it in Mein Kampf if he had.
Yeah I knew he was in WW1, and may have taken a life there. But I’m wondering about when he was actually in power. Like, did history’s greatest anti-Semite really resist the temptation to do a little dirty work himself? Did he never take an afternoon to go throw the lever on a gas chamber himself? It’s not like he couldn’t have easily arranged such a thing.
The only difference between Osama Bin Laden and Brian Thompson, is that Brian got people killed for money.
That and he did structural violence. Our brains are not adapted to react to that emotionally
Sir. This post is about Hitler
Studies on obedience (e.g. replications of Milgrim Experiment) suggest a lot of factors play into people harming and killing others on behalf of an authority. Original was 65% of participants, but it can to up to 90% with men in authoritarian cultures.
My favorite was Australian women having the lowest rate of obedience in the shock experiment, at only 16%, being relatively individualistic and rebellious culturally, but even less obedient then men as women are less likely to confirm when it involves harming others. That may have changed in recent years though, as people more comfortable with authoritarianism tend to be more likely to obey.
Typically, people least likely to obey the order have better social intelligence and moral development. Unfortunately, those traits are far and few between lately…
but even less obedient then men as women are less likely to confirm when it involves harming others
Yo, please do better. I really want to know what you’re saying but I cannot figure it out.
Typically, people least likely to obey the order have better social intelligence and moral development. Unfortunately, those traits are far and few between lately…
There’s a reason American fascists are trying to demonize the concept of ‘empathy’.
In all of the discussions, Höss is quite matter-of-fact and apathetic, shows some belated interest in the enormity of his crime, but gives the impression that it never would have occurred to him if somebody hadn’t asked him. There is too much apathy to leave any suggestion of remorse and even the prospect of hanging does not unduly stress him. One gets the general impression of a man who is intellectually normal, but with the schizoid apathy, insensitivity and lack of empathy that could hardly be more extreme in a frank psychotic.
From the Wikipedia article Rudolf Höss, about the commandant of Auschwitz.
Absolutely, empathy is easily the enemy of fascism. And the worst thing to them is unity, as we have the most empathy for people we consider in-group, so division only feeds into their agenda.
Do you have a book or a paper which aggregates these studies?
I picked up a fair amount from an OER textbook that references the studies on its chapter on conformity and obedience, but I bet there is a meta analysis out there with a more comprehensive list. The only issue is later studies on this can’t ethically go beyond a certain amount of fake voltage, as the original studies went a bit too far it’s getting people to think they killed someone.
The textbook in question is available here: https://opentextbc.ca/socialpsychology/
Straya. Brings a tear to me eye mate.
Only 13 million? I think that severely limits his responsibility. Hitler didn’t cause just 13 million deaths. Hitler caused 13 million jews to be killed + 65 million allies + ~44k in the blitzkreig + ~5 million german soldiers + all the other groups targeted in the holocaust (Roma, Gypsies, LGBT, mental patients, etc.). In total, Hitler mighta got 100 million.
It was 6 million Jews, 13 million total in the camps.
There weren’t even 13 million Jews in Europe before wwii lol.
Hurr, nooo, those are the victims of comyunusm
That’s 100 million billion!
I believe most estimates converge around 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.
Dr Harold Shipman has entered the chat.
“They only followed orders” is the most fucking stupid way to defend the oppressor, yet it works, because people have no balls to stand for themselves in such situations.
Notably, it didn’t work.
Adolf Eichmann is the guy who made that claim famous, and he was hung almost immediately after his trial.
Notably it worked really well
A few dozen people were executed for German war crimes. These people were not “just following orders”, regardless of what they said. They were creating orders.
Thousands and thousands of people directly responsible for nazi slaughter were safely smuggled out of Germany by the CIA, given new names, and resettled in America, Canada, South America, South Africa, and more.
These people were also creating orders, and yet they were freed from any consequences, including even the economic ones that followed in postwar Germany. They went on to fertilize many of the fascist, racist movements we see taking over today.
Millions more lower level people who only directly murdered others by pulling a trigger, were let off the hook completely. Many got to keep their positions of violent state enforcement. These were the only people “just following orders” and they all escaped prosecution.
I’m sure you’re balls would be all over the place
I have always wondered about this sort of thing. Powerful people are only powerful because people choose to obey them.
Choice is the wrong word, it’s rarely an honest choice
Not even obey. Many people willingly follow along mostly because they think someone they don’t like will get hurt. Trump isn’t destoying the US on his own. He is being aided by a large portion of the conservative population.
I mean that’s gross oversimplification, they also use violence of the state to force what they want
To use violence, they still need someone to carry that out.
ThenUS basically has a nation wide grooming campaign tonget boys to join the military. You’re not wrong, but the problem is deeper then that.
Does Hitler killing himself not count?
Pretty sure thats the one.
What about Eva Braun?
She committed suicide with a cyanide capsule.
What about his dog
Hitler got the cyanide capsules from Himmler, but he didn’t trust Himmler, and he also doubted the capsules effectiveness. He really didn’t want to be caught alive, especially after hearing the relatively mild treatment Mussolini got… so he had his physician test it first on Blondi.
:(
IIRC, in the movie Downfall, some of his men makes it bite down on a cyanide capsule.
I still need to watch that movie. Been seeing the memes of his rant about Steiner for 22 years. Few things bring me more joy than watching a very well acted Hitler Mental Breakdown.
You should absolutely give it a watch.
He was a war hero from WW1 so it was presumably a bit higher than that, but the vibe is there.
I don’t remember him being a war hero, just a veteran. And the number isn’t for the war, it’s “law enforcement”, so, death camps (including the Jews, Slavs, Roma…) and various raids and mass executions all over the occupied territories.
He received the second and first class Iron Crosses, the first class famously on the recommendation of his Jewish officer.
People compare them pretty frequently to the Bronze Star. I don’t think that’s quite right because the award systems are simply different but by all accounts the first class award was a rarity for his rank.
Ah, yeah, the iron cross would count, at least for the sake of argument.
Ironically that was the best thing he ever done
Just goes to show that bad people can do good things, and vice versa.
Probably assumed he escaped to Argentina so left it at 0.
Pretty safe to assume he went somewhere because he wasn’t in that hole. Dental records confirmed that.
This also applies to everyone in tech blindly contributing to the AI bubble and the rise in fascism
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Now do the number of people killed by British capitalism in India
uhm, this is an anarchist sub
Capitalism kills as many as the most inflated numbers attributed to communism every 10 years. The Black Book of Communism, widely cited for its accounting of deaths allegedly caused by communist states, estimates that communism has killed 100 million people. This includes Nazi soldiers killed in WW2 and, bizarrely, the unborn children that hypothetically would have been born if there hadn’t been a famine or a war.
To this day, 10 million people who live under capitalism die from starvation and preventable disease simply because it isn’t profitable to save them. If we take the Black Book seriously, and agree that every death that happened under a communist state (preventable or not) is attributable to the communist ideology, then we must also agree that every death under a capitalist regime is attributable to capitalism. If we do that, then capitalism is the most murderous ideology there has ever been.
Even if you don’t want to agree with the above logic, we can look at how US sanctions have directly led to the deaths of 38 million people in 50 years. These sanctions are murder done solely to coerce countries into falling in line with US interests.
…the unborn children that hypothetically would have been born if there hadn’t been a famine or a war.
One of those kids could’ve gone on to have a kid that has a kid that helps populate the whole universe. So the real number is closer to 500 kajillion million trillion.
As long as conservatives continue to live, the normal people will continue to be oppressed.
If not for conservatives, the epstein class could be charged with crimes, forced to pay fair wages and be required to pay fair taxes. If not for conservatives, capitalism could be regulated, climate change could be addressed, housing prices and wealth inequality could be cured, for-profit prison camps could be abolished and genocide could be resisted.
Every invasion and every genocide in human history has been led exclusively by conservatives. They are truly, deeply evil and will never change. Never. Only their complete erasure can bring us peace.
This comment would be more convincing if you just called them fascists instead of using the meaningless euphemism of “conservative”.
Conservatives are fascists. They are the same people. Always have been.
Liberals are also fascists
You know it’s a bad idea when it’s the military strategy to build obedient soldiers
