As a Canadian, I’m deeply frustrated that we are taught the metric system but everything related to construction uses the feet/inch system, because USA.
It’s more than that
Heights are almost expressed in feet and inches when it comes to people, and oven temperatures in Farenheight
But then outdoor temps are in Celsius, and measurements are often in CM / M oh and boy temp is Farenheight too cause of course lol
Yep. You can add to that the weight of people and other random things expressed in lb, while we are taught kg in school.
I remember discussing with a huge group of European students what imperial had become mainly used for in UK and Ireland. It’s for height and pizza size. I was in a group with many girls so us guys stopped short of mentioning about dick size being one of the few things imperial is only used for in UK and Ireland.
The one thing metric screws up is file size.
A gigabyte is 1000 megabytes or 1,000,000 kilobytes or 1,000,000,000 bytes.
A gibibyte is 1024 mebibyte or 1,048,576 kibibyte or 1,073,741,824 bytes, because it needs to go by increments of a power of 2.
This would be fine except gigabyte also means gibibyte. So if a file claims to be N GBs, I don’t know if it actually means metric GBs or GiBs.
I got a question about hard drive sizes on a math test 15 years ago. Was super frustrating, since I didn’t know wether or not the person who wrote the test, knew the difference.
That is not exactly metric 's fault though. It’s whoever made the decision to portray stuff as such in operating systems
Imperial thinking people most likely
Whats funny is the oil and gas industry has orders of magnitude worse units. So much so, I would say the imperial system is scared of it.
I love that I’m seeing him in the wild now. One of my favourite creators, no doubts about it.
I’ve said it on this platform before: I will build furniture in inches until my hands can’t hold a chisel anymore. The inch system arose around the needs of carpentry and woodworking, it works in base 12, which is outright superior to base 10, especially when you divide by 3 and 4 more often than by 5.
Also, the closest tape measure I have to hand is my 5m metric tape. I build things in metric, just…not furniture.
I’ve setup a software that generate quotes, sales invoice and production order for a windows and door company. The sales person enter the dimensions and option of the window and it automatically calculate the price, the exact amount material, deduct it from the inventory and generate the cutting and assembly instruction.
They were all working with fractional inches. I’ve started setting up the system using inches and it was a NIGHTMARE ! I quickly decided to convert everything on metric in the back end and to do all the calculations on that and I reconvert it in inches at the end.
Now most of the workers are using metric because it just make more sense.
I’m a carpenter as well, and I hear what you’re saying, but also my coworkers and I were just talking yesterday about how much better metric is 😅 Every base-12 advantage is weakened by the fact that I’m constantly expected to do fractions. Everything in metric is a whole number and it’s so hot. Love it when I get an actual number to build something to, instead of a math problem.
If you’ve ever ordered lumber from a Canadian company, you know how much easier it is to calculate and order in metric units vs. board-feet. I feel bad for their sales reps who have to deal with us Yankeestanis.
Also, all the really nice chisels and hand tools from Japan and Europe are already in metric.
A dozenal metric system would work as well as the decimal metric system, as long as everything else was base-12:
in base 12 in base 10 1m’m = 10⁻³m = 0.001m 1m’m = 12⁻³m = 1/1728m 1c’m = 10⁻²m = 0.01m 1c’m = 12⁻²m = 1/144m 1m = 1m 1m = 1m 1k’m = 10³m = 1000m 1k’m = 12³m = 1728m Since we’re at this might as well say the day has 10₁₂k’s = 20736₁₀s. Each k’s is exactly two of our current hours, and each “new second” is roughly two of our current seconds. Enough of this Sumerian mixed base already!
What do you do when a piece you’re cutting isnt exactly a foot, say, 11 or 13 inches? I know nothing about woodworking, but I’m assuming there isnt a unified standard to make everything match to the nearest whole foot, so then this whole base 12 thing goes out the window, or am I missing something here?
You look at your tape measure, at the number 11 or 13 as appropriate, put a mark there, then take it to the saw and cut it.
I meant, for cutting in thirds and quarters. An exact foot you can cut at 3 and 4 inches, but if a board is 13 inches, divide that by 3 and you have to cut at… 4.3333333 inches?
Basically there is a conflict going on amongst the woodworkers of the world between those who think clearer in decimals, and those who think clearer in fractions. The fraction folks will tend to prefer standard units, the decimal thinkers will tend to prefer metric.
What’s interesting to me is: you only ever hear Americans complaining about metric, but you never hear woodworkers from Europe or Japan talk about the advantages of standard units… while the Europeans and Japanese are also pumping out generally much higher-quality woodworking than most folks in the USA are. You can probably tell which I prefer lol
My take is, if the standard units were really that much better, I think Japanese and French folks would be using them, because their cultures care a looot more about fine woodworking than the USA’s culture does.
Japan had their own system quite similar to inches that was so popular Japan had to ban the sale or transfer of the rulers.
Wow, base 12, I never thought of thas! You halve it, quarter it, and third it, and still end up with clean integers.
Yeah; you’ll often find boards in America milled to 3/4" or 1 1/2". Those are 1/16th or 1/8th of a foot. A lot of boards used in furniture are 3/4" thick. Half of 3/4 is 3/8, a third of 3/4 is 1/4. It solves the problems we need to solve, and the metric woodworkers start sounding how teaspoon/cup/quart cooks do.
Yeah, after learning Japanese in 3 different writing systems, one of which has thousands of characters… I’m never hearing criticism of Imperial units again
If you consider hiragana and katakana to be different writing systems, then English lower and upper case letters are two different writing systems, too.
Not that it makes Kanji any easier to learn.
Sorry, I haven’t gotten to the katakana part yet. Are you saying they’re all the same sounds as hiragana, just slightly different shapes?
Pretty much, yeah.
あ and ア are pronounced the same. Katakana is used for foreign words mainly if I’m not mistaken.
Sir, this is a Wendy’s, we measure in common units around here…
shopping for a new mailbox today, they used number of baseballs it can fit as the units and/or basketball for the big ones
I prefer absolute units and natural units.
Natural units? You mean like cup sizes? A/B/C/D/DD… ?
A sixth of a foot?
Now do a sixth of a meter lol.
Base ten is not the flex you think
I don’t understand what you just said, and I don’t care to respond
Plate or platter?
Ready to have your mind blown?
You can write 1/6m.
You can write π m.
Now go cut me a board 1/6m without a measuring device. Do it by eye. With a fractional system 1/6 of a foot is far easier to do.
Now go cut me a board 1/6m without a measuring device. Do it by eye. With a fractional system 1/6 of a foot is far easier to do.
You probably could do it if you grew up measuring things in centimetres and metres, instead of inches, elbows and feet.
In fact I’m often eyeballing ~10cm = 1/10m and ~20cm = 1/5m based on my hand*. If you asked me however “how many feet is this” I’d need to mentally convert “3ft = 1 m” to get any sensible answer.
You’re confusing “it’s more intuitive because I grew up with it” with “it’s intrinsically more intuitive”.
*10cm: from the tip of my middle finger to the knuckle. 20cm: between the tips of my thumb and pinkie, when the fingers are spread out the max.
I’m perfectly happy and able to seamlessly shift between systems. You seem stuck at “Ugh, me sure me right and all else wrong!” attitude.
And you, by your examples, are STILL using a device to measure things because the metric system isn’t that intuitive. You are using body parts that you have predetermined the approximate lengths of. I can tell a 4 year old child to cut a piece of paper in half and they intuitively understand about how much that is with no pre-measured body parts.
Perhaps switching perspectives a bit might help you to understand it?
I know rationally that 1lb ≃ 1/2 kg. But if you tell me “I bought 5 lb taters” I’m not picturing anything until I mentally convert “5 lb ≃ 2 1/2 kg, that’s a lot”. And if I don’t do this mental conversion, “5 lb” means the same as “7 diddly-doodly” or “half a skwerl”, nothing.
I also know, rationally, that 1 ft = 1/3 m. But if you told me “I’m 10 ft tall” I’d be like “okay… [small pause] wait, isn’t this around 3.3m tall? That’s bullshit, nobody is 3m tall”.
From the above, following the exact same reasoning you’ve been trying to apply here, the conclusion is the opposite as yours: while the metric system would allow you to intuitively grasp how large/small things are, the imperial system doesn’t. And if the same reasoning leads to contradictory conclusions then the reasoning is bullshit.
What would explain the above is the following:
- any measurement system allows you to intuitively grasp how large/small things are, once you’re used to it
- You are not used to the metric system, even if trying to fool yourself with “I can seamlessly shift between systems”.
- I’m not used to the imperial system. But unlike you I can tell apart what’s my own habits vs. what’s from the system itself.
And really, this shit is like QWERTY keyboards. I’m happy with mine, and I can instinctively find the keys without looking. But that doesn’t automatically stop QWERTY from being an awkward mess of a layout, and anyone arguing “QWERTY is more intuitive” is full of shit.
And you, by your examples, are STILL using a device to measure things because the metric system isn’t that intuitive.
Following this dumb “ackshyually your using a measurement device lol, you’re hand lmao”, you’re also using a pair of measurement devices: your eyes.
But let’s roll with it. The reason I still need to use a “device” has zero to do with the measurement system. It’s profession; I’m no carpenter, my work never trained me to bat an eye at something and say “this should be twenty five large”. This is not about the measurement system itself.
I can tell a 4 year old child to cut a piece of paper in half and they intuitively understand about how much that is with no pre-measured body parts.
A 4yo can do the same with metric.
You’re confusing “fractions vs. decimal” with “imperial vs. metric”, and making a fool of yourself.
Dunno if you noticed, but I actually used fractions with the metric system in this very comment. The reason people don’t do this too often is because fractions are awkward to add and subtract, and you’re giving up unit conversions. But you can. Half a kilo, a third of a metre, it’s fine.
In the meantime, if you were to seriously use decimals with the imperial system, you’d reinvent the metric system poorly. “This is 3.62ft large… okay, it’s 362 centifeet”.
I spent years as toolmaker. Measuring things was my life. I still have tools and whole machines scattered across thing planet. So yes, I’m incredibly comfortable with both systems. G20/G21 after all. The difference between my and you is I don’t consider any measurement system to be intuitively better than another. I use whatever system is either asked for or required for the job at hand.
I could not afford be as parochial or narrow minded as you seem to be if I wanted to make a living.
Are you saying that you can estimate fractional lengths by eye better in imperial than in metric, or that using a fractional measuring device is more precise than using no device at all? Neither option seems like a good point tbh.
But let’s entertain that since imperial is a fractional system it makes cutting fractions of foot-long boards easier. For 1/6 that’s 2", very cool, mission accomplished, much superior than 16.7cm. But what if you need to cut 1/5 or 1/7? Now you need to work with 1/32" subdivisions while metric stays the same and allows you to keep working at however many decimal positions of accuracy the job requires. A 1/7m board can be 14.3cm if you’re going to use it as timber (or even 14 for that matter), or 142.86mm if it’s for aerospace applications. Unless I’m not allowed to use any measuring device, because reasons?
Fractions and bases don’t relate to each other in the way you think they do
You mean 16.7cm ?
And why a 6th ? Why not a 5th, or a 7th ? Your argument is not the flex you think.
I think it’s worth adding that while no system can avoid difficult divisions, we use the same base-ten numerals everywhere so metric only has to deal with the limitations of base-ten. Using a unit system with a different base, but then having base-ten numbers to count those sounds like it defeats the purpose. If we counted in base-twelve, then that would be a different matter.
So that took a calculator to do didn’t it. It was not an intuitive calculation you could easily and quickly do in your head was it.
First, no it didn’t. It’s not that hard.
Second, it works because they chose 6, but do it with 5, then it’s “easier” in base 10, do it with 7 and you’re back to decimals either way.
So who decided base10 is correct? Why be limited to just 3 factors of then when you could have 4 with base12? More factors more better. And don’t give me the “10 fingers” thing. If you count the knuckles on your fingers, (ignore the thumb), you will discover there are 12 of them. A natural Base12 just like counting whole fingers.
More than one civilization has done base12. And I believe there are still one or two Pacific Island cultures still using base12 to this day.
Maybe me and five friends want to split a fruit by the foot.
Now THAT is a flex. You have 5 friends ? In this economy ?
I mean the yard and pound have been defined by metric for a long time so it’s really just an indirect metric system so the USs feelings don’t get hurt.
It only seems ridiculous because you forgot some intermediates: 5.5 yards = 1 rod, 4 rods = 1 chain, 10 chain = 1 furlong, and 8 furlong = 1 mile. So just gotta remember 12, 3, 5.5, 4, 10, 8. Super simple.
Links and chains brings me back to my old drafting days. 10 square chains are 1 acre. 80 chains is a mile.
Don’t make me math
Rod? Chain? What is this bdsm?
Worse, its the imperial units “system”
No safeword, no lube
No, it’s not “Imperial units” and hasn’t been for a long time. It’s US Customary units. There are differences between the two systems. If your going to troll, get it right.
If you can’t, go back to your troll cave and cuddle your delicious stinky cheeses!
You mean US Customary
Who cares, it is just some funny and crazy inconsisten conversion to SI units. The whole system is defined by SI units at its base and the fedaral government is largely metric.
This explanation is fucking gold
It explains nothing since he got it wrong…
how many drams to a fluid troy ounce?
22 yds to a chain, 10 chains to a furlong, 8 furlongs to a mile.
You’ve been hit by…
You’ve been struck by…
A smooth metric system
Annie, are you Oakley? Are you Oakley, Annie?
Sigh, I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, I’m sure. After a 16 year career as a machinist in the US and having to easily change between both systems daily, one system is dozenal and fractional and one is decimal based. Dozenal and fractional are both easier and faster when you start thinking that way. A mile isn’t 1760 yards precisely, it’s 5,280 feet. 5,280 / 12 = 440. It’s dozenal. All units, and I mean all units are arbitrary. Someone just decided x means y. Whether it’s “this amount of silicon atoms is 1kg” or “this specific length of barley corn is 1 inch” - they’re both defined by a decision that someone (or a group) just kinda made.
It’s really frustrating how many people don’t understand the systems are equally arbitrary. A barleycorn is just as arbitrary as one 10 millionth of the distance between the equator and north pole (or recalculating that based on the speed of light)
As an old toolmaker, I agree. It’s like Europeans suck at understanding math(s) just as much as 'Muricans. Fractions are NOT complicated, if a bit crude for precision. Not that either system matters much anymore. It’s all just G20/G21 anyway. It’s all either just a push of a button or a G-code away.
If the machine doesn’t care about the units are being used, why should I?
Yeah. The older machines needed you to manually convert before using that code, but it is a non-issue now as far as making things with cnc. Measuring, though? People get weird.
both easier and faster when you start thinking that way.
Let me translate: “This system is easier because I am more used to it”.
I can assure you there is nothing difficult about decimals if you are used to them.
No, I’m incredibly used to both, and that’s my point.
Actually, I’m in the mood to go on a rant here. You’re using the metric system incorrectly. The odds are that you will list something as ~900 mm. Be mad, whatever, but I’ve seen this kind of thing on literally thousands of prints. Sure, for formal precision reasons you’d list it that way. However, in my long career not a single person has used the feature of metric that should make it easy. Not a single person has ever mentioned deca/deci/hexa etc. meters. Ever. Metric is far and away objectively not simpler; most people just refuse to use it to its full potential to make it even easier by only thinking in 4 units (those being mm, cm, m, and 1km). Actually, metric technically has infinite units.
I’ve had a long professional career of measuring physical things. They’re both bad. Dozenal and fractional systems are objectively faster for building/making things. Decimal is better if you want to measure small things/amounts.
Then there’s the fact that ISO 9001 tolerances are much higher for metric listings. Yeah, it’s incredibly stupid that prints that are transferred from most places to the US and vice versa get converted twice from both systems. However, the 9001 standard for metric tolerances is usually +/- 0.05mm, which is 0.002". In my line of work that is a huge tolerance. Siemens Medical is the worst about this. They allow 0.381mm everywhere, which is 0.015". I’m not trying to say that US manufacturing is better, or vice versa. It’s just that both systems have ways of being awful.
So please give me an example of “building things” and why metric would not be better when measuring "small things*. Like I can measure anything in both units just fine, its whats the tool is telling me isn’t it? So it’s either about up/down scaling, which is just multiply by 10^x for the amount you need (aka slide the decimal point to where you need it)
I agree. I use both and have for decades now. It just seems Europeans can’t handle fractions despite their puny efforts to do so.
Ok, and what’s the significance of 440?
440 ÷ 12 = 110 ÷ 3 = 36⅔Is that really a dozenal (sic. duodecimal) system? Or more like a copecimal system?
The yard is something born of convenience. It isn’t really used seriously outside of American football and spirit levels for some reason. And, you are right - there is no real significance to it. The vast majority of Americans ignore the yard outsideof very fast estimates for good reason, it needs 4 to fit the concept of 12.
I was not talking about the yard at all. I was talking about 440. Which is a number not wholly divisible by 12.
Be true. It isn’t a duodecimal system. Sometimes it needs 12 to get to the next highest unit, sometimes 3 or 8 or 16 or 14 or 5280.
Being entirely duodecimal would be kinda cool in fact. But it’s not applicable and shouldn’t be used as an argument pro US customary system.
