No shit.
It’s Superintelligence, stop calling it ai or i’ll throw a plate of ketchup against the wall again, hmp!
-orange
but the shareholders?
Looks like they would have been better off too. I think those are the humans he is talking about.
File under “Y” for “Yeah, no shit”.
YOU DON’T SAY??
All AI does for me is to give me more work to do. Its code is terrible. It has horrible taste. Its work is not modelled after the task, but after “must look complicated”
Every now and then, when zeal comes upon them, my bosses email me a bunch of risk assessments and policy documents that have obviously been written by AI, probably just from one or two prompts. I have actual work to do, I don’t have time to be reading through that shit - so I get AI to summarise it for me.
For this we are boiling the oceans. Sometimes I think our species is just one big Darwin award waiting to happen.
Get Ponytail https://github.com/DietrichGebert/ponytail and an auto-linter such as pi-lens if you’re using Pi harness. And a goal/to-do (pi-goal-x) extension.
What model are you using?
All of this crap for a single markdown file 🙈 or am I overlookong something
Thx, will take a look! GLM 5.3 (flash and no flash), mistral large 4 were the best i tried. The worst were chatgpt 5.6 sol, claude sonnet (a new one, no idea which one). Deepseek v4 flash was ok-ish, qwen coder was nice if i was too lazy to paste stuff.
I used them via mistral’s CLI, served via Mistral’s API, and an academic cloud vendor. I have the cli run in an extremely strict jail (podman-based), so the stuff they can use is super limited (e.g. no bash).
Still learning. Could really be a skill.md issue?
You got access to much bigger models than I have! Nice. I use the gondolin sandbox for Pi. It traps it in a minimal Alpine Linux VM with only packages you define and the only directory it can see being the dir you cd’d into.
Skill.md issue
How can someone have a skill issue with AI? Isn’t the whole point that it does everything for me? Never understood this.
People are like “you’re gonna get left behind!” and I’m like. How could I be left behind by the magic machine that does everything for me? I’ll just start using it one day and be just as good as everyone else because that’s explicitly how they are designing the software to be used, right?
It’s with anything. It’s a tool. Like if you buy a synthesizer but you don’t press any buttons and complain you don’t get the sound you want.
Like go on a image generation site and say “dog” sure you’ll probably get a picture of a dog but it’s probably not the breed, color or setting or pose you want. If you are more spesific in your prompt you’ll get a more spesific thing.
Skills etc are just prompts. And with better prompts you’ll get better results. It’s very simple
Honestly yeah likely, I have extreme lack of knowledge re: vibe coding.
I am much faster per pedes right now
duh.
Nah. Humans are just complete shits in general.
It isn’t AI (although, again, that doesn’t even exist, all we have are statistic machines) that is the problem. Its that we are not anywhere near enlightened enough to be responsible for anything as a species.
Geoffrey Hinton, who no one can say with a straight face “doesn’t understand AI”, also says they are conscious. But none of you screechers, yelling to the clouds from your grumble-goon caverns, wanna hear that.
Ive never heard of this guy until today but I read the headline and it confirmed my bias so Im all in
Can understand AI all he wants. Doesn’t mean he understands consciousness
So are you of the belief that “we don’t know” or “definitely not”?
It’s wild he says that they’re conscious when science & philosophy as a whole still don’t really understand consciousness.
So it sounds like he’s an arrogant moron with a very specific expertise he likes to apply outside of where it should be applied.
He has a long history of anything but. You obviously have a very reactionary set of fixed beliefs though.
Here’s me with a straight face: Anyone who claims LLMs are conscious “does not understand AI”.
Thank you for adding clarity to the understanding that holds your viewpoint.
I don’t know him, so I can’t speculate on his chatbot knowledge, but if we assume he does know how they work, I can definitively say he doesn’t understand consciousness.
His body of work speaks for itself. I can assume since you are attempting to stand against his knowledge with your own, that your understanding is equally as proven.
Can you link me to some of your work?
First, do you genuinely believe LLMs are conscious?
No more than I believe Broca’s area and Wernicke’s area are conscious, but neither exist in a vacuum devoid of the rest of the organism and surrounding universe.
So… Yes or no?
I’m sorry I didn’t realize that was confusing. A specialized chunk of the human mind used for language, removed from the rest of a human and the universe, does not reach a conscious threshold worthy of major consideration. Just like a severed finger. A bare LLM, removed from the rest of the the digital apparatus and the universe, does not reach a conscious threshold worthy of major consideration
Now, I’ll ask you one. Do you think there are conscious non-human animals? Or do you believe that is a trait only humans possess?
Consciousness is having a subjective experience. Yes lots of animals are conscious.
Wow, see how I answered concisely without typing a paragraph of fluff?
removed from the rest of the digital apparatus and the universe
Speak plainly, Ascian. Does that mean there are circumstances (in today’s world) in which you would consider an LLM to have a subjective experience?
That’s not a case of not understanding AI, that’s just a case of having a misanthropic world view. His conception of consciousness is that there’s nothing particularly special about it and that humans are just jumped-up apes that pretend to be important. He also probably hasn’t actually spent much time philosophizing about consciousness.
Humans are just jumped-up apes that pretend to be important. Or are you trying to say we are magic?
There is no “magic god juice” in humans that makes us conscious. Consciousness is a state already shared with non human animals.
And there you go, that’s why AI boosters feel like they can say their toys are conscious. They don’t think consciousness is interesting or different from how any other animal experiences the world, just jumped up apes that pretend to be special. Naturally, this leads them to conclude chatbots are conscious.
It’s gibberish, of course. In reality, they don’t know what it is and don’t care to define it because it is unimportant to them. These can be very smart people who know a lot about AI, but they don’t know a lot about consciousness and their opinions shouldn’t be taken that seriously. Qualia? What’s that?
I never said it was unimportant. You have jumped to a lot of unfounded conclusions.
Do you believe that all animals are just unconscious reaction machines, except humans?
I don’t believe a human and a non-human ape have equivalent ethical value. There’s something different between them.
That’s not what I asked. Every response you have given has been slippery and imprecise at best, and misleading at worst. I think you just don’t want to say “magic god juice” because it rightfully sounds silly, but you really think “magic god juice” is what humans have.
It’s a question of phenomenology and subjectivity. This degradation of consciousness as “magic god juice” is just misanthropy. Yet, you yourself probably believe the life of a human is not equal to that of a non-human animal. Why? What’s the difference? Can you even answer that? Have you even thought about it?
There’s nothing slippery about what I’ve said either. AI boosters think their toys are conscious because they see consciousness as unimportant and trivial. To the extent they’ve thought about it, they’ve decided their toys have equivalent value to human life and are willing to kill everyone to build the god machine.
It’s a problem with human greed, not AI. If we didn’t have greedy oligarch parasites then AI wouldn’t be nearly as much of a problem. NIMBYism is destroying the future of the USA.
That is only some of the problem.
See the study where they compared brain activity with or without. Also, if the AI users were cut off from being able to use, they at least in the moment became less capable of doing the tasks than they were before they were being allowed to use AI. Study can’t speak to lasting impact, but they clearly showed people would get worse in the moment.
Studies have shown that folks that employ a rich writing style early in life are less likely to show dementia late in life and people who have very lazy writing styles are likely to have dementia. Obviously too early to say for sure if this applies to LLM, but leaning on LLM for writing might be similarly lazy.
Not so sure, the younger generations have zero critical thinking skills, can’t problem solve without a road map. Need to be able to figure shit out on your own creating your own road map
Yup. No need for researching or critical thinking kids! your buddy chat gpt can give you all the answers.
Why this generation more than the one before?
Maybe it’s because the system is working as the old ghouls pushed it.
It’s always fascinating that the blame is put on the individuals while mega corps are distilling hijacking our brains and gaming our systems to get more money and control.
Society at large is built up for people to succumb to the pitfalls, but still individuals get blamed when the pressure is simply too much or when the system is made to make individuals fail.
Fuck this noise. We would have been the same as this generation if we had the same monetized dopamine hooks as they grew up with.
I won’t deny that, we’d be the same. Doesn’t matter though, they have to do better and grow out of it or future generations are fucked. We can put blame on the mega corps but that’s just a rocketing chair, gives you something to do but doesn’t get you anywhere
I was a programmer for 25 years. I always figured I could have made a contribution to AI research, but the opportunity never came up (I was too busy writing Skype clones for cable companies and ISPs that were never used by anyone). I regretted this for a long time, but not any more. I never imagined AI would be this fucking bad, “bad” in the sense of bad for humanity and just plain bad as a product.
It’s cause it’s not AI
FWIW I always felt my contribution would have been towards “real” AI rather than the current pseudo-AI stuff that is all the rage. In addition to being a programmer, I also have a background in evolutionary biology and neuroanatomy. The “neural networks” that are part of current AI were originally based on the understanding of how neurons function that existed in the 1970s, and they were (and are still) a poor implementation of that level of knowledge. IMHO true AI can be achieved by more accurate simulation of how real neurons and real neural networks function and how they have come about in the real world through hundreds of millions of years of evolution by natural selection.
That being said, “real” AI is probably going to be even worse for humanity than this current stuff is, so at least I’m glad that blood won’t be on my hands.
Honest question. Why would you want “true AI”?
This is like saying “true mega bubonic-AIDS can be made if we do XYZ”.
Stop, stop making mega bubonic-AIDS
I feel for you. Going into machine learning was my dream to. Until this. I wanted to work on true artificial intelligence based on the human brain.
I really don’t understand this perspective, and it’s my biggest gripe with Chollet and his ilk as well. What, in your opinion, makes neuro-symbolic AI inherently superior to (the currently better performing) statistical methods?
I really don’t understand this perspective
This is honestly a strange thing to say. The only examples we have on the planet today of what we consider true intelligence are living animals. Why wouldn’t it at least be possible that the properties of the signaling units that comprise these existing, observed intelligences (i.e. neurons) are fundamental to the task of replicating these intelligences? It seems to me it’s the “statistical methods” that have yet to prove they’re capable of producing true intelligence.
I will retreat to the fact that I said “true AI can be achieved by more accurate simulation of how real neurons and real neural networks function” and not “can only be achieved”. Time will tell which approach works better.
I don’t know who Chollet is but I’ll look him up. Thanks for the reference.
they can’t read and, as Sartre said: the slopper knows the things it says are absurd…
It most definitely is AI, and the guy is a Nobel Price winner for making a breakthrough in AI programming.
Contrary to you, he actually knows what he is talking about.Just because he has a novel prize doesn’t make him immune to propaganda.
I never made any claims about that, that doesn’t change that claiming it’s not AI is moronic. We absolutely have AI, and have had it since at least the 80’s.
Claiming we don’t is moronic.
so there is a field of ai. it’s a real thing. we don’t have it yet, but, like cold fusion, we’re pretty sure its possible and the steps along the way are fascinating. even partial steps have wide reaching applications and philosophical implications. it is the absolute coolest shit, and gets exactly 0 funding these days.
the thing all the data centers RAM water electricity and economy are backing right now is not ai. it’s what happens when a magic trick and a ponzi scheme fuck on a pile of cocaine in a Pharaoh’s tomb. I say that to the audience here, because there’s really no point talking to someone who’s still a partisan the other way.
so there is a field of ai. … even partial steps have wide reaching applications and philosophical implications. it is the absolute coolest shit, and gets exactly 0 funding these days.
the thing all the data centers RAM water electricity and economy are backing right now is not ai. it’s what happens when a magic trick and a ponzi scheme fuck on a pile of cocaine in a Pharaoh’s tomb.
These two positions seem to be mutually exclusive, and your response is, on the whole, incoherent. Could you please explain what it is you are trying to communicate?
I thought I already had, so maybe I can’t. not to you at least.
We most definitely have AI, on the other hand cold fusion is NOT possible, you are wrong on both counts.
Oh look its the physics knower. What do you mean cold fusion isn’t possible? Did you come up with the theory of everything and fail to mention it to the rest of us? We DONT KNOW what is possible. Science is not even 5% of the way towards figuring out the entire universe. Such a definite answer is in no way verifiable. You could say it’s not possible for us to do it right now. That’s true. But saying it’s entirely not possible is about as backed by evidence as your typical religious claim.
Cold fusion is not an acknowledged physical theory, it’s not even an acknowledged hypothesis. In fact all physical theory talks against it.
IDK why I’m downvoted and you are upvoted? Cold fusion is a hoax and has never happened.
It’s a phenomenon only debated seriously among the ignorant.Physics is literally not correct. We know that to be a fact. We have an approximation of how to calculate certain things, and we have some of the pieces correct, but we have no actual understanding of how things work at a fundamental level. Hence there is no way to rule out anything definitively. Fucking MAGIC could be real under the right circumstances for all we know. It’s UNLIKELY but it is not 100% known to be fake. THe language you used was definitive. That is what I take issue with.
we also have warp travel the warhammer kind not the star trek kind.
I have no idea about what warp speed warhammer style is, but the idea of traveling faster than light using warp speed is a fantasy that doesn’t work even in theory, because you can’t bend space faster than light either, because gravity too can’t travel faster than light. So the idea of traveling faster than light because you are moving within a warped field can never work, because you can’t move the warp field faster than light anyway.
Never really got into the warhammer universe, I know it’s HUGE, maybe some day I’ll get around to it.
this thing you said isn’t true
well I beg to differ. I met my girlfriend there!
There are actually several ways that faster than light travel would work mathematically. We just are nowhere near having the resources to test them.
Please stop using this argument. Unless you also brought it up every single time the term was used in videogames etc
It’s a bad argument that relies on pure language semantics that helps no one and undermines any good argument against it because it weakens your stance
You missed the point. Video game NPC “AI” is actual AI, based on deterministic rules, combining contextual(!) inputs to determine reactions.
LLMs are none of that. They have no determinism, no concept of context and their “reaction” are pure statistics.
This is almost exactly the opposite of how LLMs work.
LLMs running under greedy decoding are deterministic finite state machines. A lot of work has gone into making their output nondeterministic because probabilistic next-token generation is more useful.
The more accurate characterization would be that LLMs are context-dependent deterministic state machines with adjustable nondeterministic sampling algorithms bolted onto the decoder.
Also, just as a side note:
They have no determinism, no concept of context and their “reaction” are pure statistics.
This almost perfectly describes human behavior.
This is almost exactly the opposite of how LLMs work.
With the exact state of training data, and the exact prompt history, you’ll get the same output. Problem is that you only get this scenario a single time. And as much as a spelling error, or simply repeating the same prompt twice, will not yield deterministic output.
So no, LLM garbage is not deterministic. Otherwise it would be possible to predict output before the matrix processes the input.
They have no determinism, no concept of context and their “reaction” are pure statistics.
This almost perfectly describes human behavior.
That’s nonsense. Most mammals have a high understanding of context, and humans are very much able to produce deterministic answers to a given problem.
don’t argue with it like its a person. even if IRS made of meat, it is engaging in bad faith.
- With greedy decoding (temperature set to 0) LLM output is deterministic. The same input will always result in the same output — every time. This is a fact.
- Just because something isn’t amenable to calculation does not mean it is nondeterministic, for example the Three Body Problem. This is a fact.
- Humans are stupid unpredictable base animals that hold almost no understanding of the world around them or their place within it, while at the same time their heard-level behaviors are almost, if not entirely, predictable. This is a cynical joke.
LLMs are none of that. They have no determinism, no concept of context and their “reaction” are pure statistics.
yes, absolutely. and? Still makes them AI. Just not AGI (what the tech bros think they sell).
Video game NPC “AI” is actual AI, based on deterministic rules, combining contextual(!) inputs to determine reactions.
yes, and? You described an algorithm. If used in the context of game AI, it falls into the category of AI. The same way an LLM falls also the broad definition of AI. It’s just not AGI
This is exactly the stupid sematic discussion I mentioned above. You are fighting the wrong fight. Start focusing on calling their bullshit for not being AGI. That’s something you can actually attack. Calling it not AI is just factually a categorical error. And weakins your argument
Calling it not AI is just factually a categorical error.
I can’t just sit and watch people say this nonsense. It is not Intelligent. It is hardly artificial. It is a marketing concept and should be called out as such.
And frankly I think its worth calling out marketing bullshit because 1. people should be informed what is really going on here, and 2. that companies marketing it this way are trying to convince you that there is some intelligence behind it so you can trust and use it.
Could you inform me of what is really going on here?
Snake oil and wish fullfilment with a heavy dose of personal information data gathering/privacy invasion and addiction. That is whats going on here.
What people are actually using are probability engines. Statisical guessing machines. Nothing more. Every word and every letter is just a prediction based on the probability the next one is going to occur and fit. There is no desireable outcome that it cares about.
There is no understanding or consciousness. No decision making based on anything else, no feeling, no desire, nothing.
The term, in mathmatics and computer science is technically correct, as the field started around the late 1940’s. But this term is taken to mean far more than this and marketed as such. Hence why Trump tried to rebrand yet again with Super Intelligence, just more marketing.
These are money making schemes conflated with desire for power and a gold rush where no company wants to be late to the party. It’s an investment loop; a sleight of hand to move money.
Look at all the bullshit they build into the chatbots alone to try and humanize it: memories of you, telling you that you are very smart, agreeing by design, particularly to the point of making stuff up. The sycophany is used to drive engagement, even when the answer is wrong.
- No one talked about AGI, and of course video game NPCs do not have that.
- LLMs are - technically speaking - the shittiest subset of the broad field of AI research. However, since they have zero determinism, they are the absolute opposite of “intelligent”. They are artificial morons, if anything. And I object to the overuse of “AI” because words are important, and most humans are incredibly gullible and when everyone and their news station calls something “AI”, they will assume it is intelligent and will rely on its outputs. This will kill people.
Therefore: No, LLMs are not AI. They are statistical garbage generators with a high word prediction accuracy that is enough to fool humans into falsely believing they have understanding of context.
correction: this will kill more people. it’s been doing that for a while
LLMs are not AI. AI is a real thing and it’s in pong. LLMs are not anything like the AI in pong.
they literally are. AI is a very broad term. They are just not AGI.
People need to learn that categories exist and have grouping hirarchies. You’re proving my point wonderfully
Exactly. My farts are AI. I agree!
no. no because in video games it was understood that the “ai: very hard” was not actually ai, it was computer player. it did actually use some very early research in the field, but it was not ai and even at age ten I knew that. ai would not have so many dumb pathing problems. nobody was trying to tell me the AI from unreal:tournament or starcraft: brood war had feelings or was going to conquer the world, so clarification was not required.
You misunderstand AI. Limited algorithms are still AI. So yes, video game algorithms are AI, LLMs are not, because they are statistical garbage generators.
quibbling over definitions but sure, it’s kind of technically but the media push over thus shit gas garbled the language so communication between experts casual stuff knowers and formless fuckwits has three mostly non overlapping sets of meanings for a bunch of words
but it was not ai
It’s as much AI as when they made the chess computer that beat Kasparov, it’s just not a very sophisticated AI.
its not ai. its not on the cutting edge of the field of researching ai. its not progress. it does not get us closer. it does not tell us anything about ourselves or information science we didn’t learn from satoshi nakamoto or Adolph Hitler years earlier.
It doesn’t have to be cutting edge or even progress to be AI, how did you get that idea? Obviously Anthropic and OpenAI have cutting edge AI, they are considered the global leaders, even if they go bankrupt in a few months.
I think you are confusing AI with AGI or strong AI.
There is not 1 single way to make an AI, and there are HUGE differences in how good they are, but very very definitely we have had AI since the 80’s. Back then it just wasn’t really usable, that began to a very small degree in the 90’s, with for instance expert systems.Maybe read this to become better informed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_artificial_intelligencewe call it ai when its at the frontier of how close we’re getting to ai. cultural convention.
this shit isn’t and never was.
we also call stuff that is parts of what would be an agi theoretically if we ever build one, kinds of narrow reasoning and the like. this shit isn’t and never will be.
What is AI to you then? Is the only thing that’s AI a fully working consciousness but running on silicon instead of synapses?
If we fix the name, it will not change what it does, and it probably won’t fix how people use and feel about it. “Really Good Guessing Machine” is less marketable than “Artificial Intelligence”, and much closer to the truth, but CEOs would be willing to take credit for laying off 20% of their workforce because they have RGGM now.
Maybe “Predictive Token Gamble”, to convey that all it does is predict tokens, and each output, each use case, and the entire industry as a whole is a gamble… “PTG reduced our human capital expenditure by 20%” still goes a long way, though.
I think it would change how people use it. the people ordering it used are mostly very stupid. the current push, insurability of anything that uses it, and flood of endless vc cash, is based on the bullshit fairy tale.
How is what people do any better or different than the Really Good Guessing Machine?
You are spot on, and the ones downvoting you are simply wrong.
it’s funny because they are literally proving my point. But oh well
It’s sad how many stupid people are here. 🙁
Too much reddit contrarianism leaking. All too keen to say the same 4 taglines to a topic without any understanding if it even makes sense
I don’t know what it is, but sometimes it feels like debating a stupid 12 year old.
I do bring it up every case and even if I didn’t this case it’s an important distinction. Artificial intelligence is a marketing term used to conjure images of Jarvis and what not in people heads.
Video games companies never claimed to have near sentiment AGI baked into their games that would replace all human workers or blow up the world.
The term artificial intelligence is used to anthropomorphize LLMs as weird as that seems.
It is an important distinction. These are large language models, not reasoning models, not AGI, not artificial life not artificial intelligence.
I know that term as been used by the machine learning community in the past to mean things like decision trees and general models, and it didn’t really matter much then but it matters A LOT now.
Words have meanings. This isn’t arguing semantics, it’s using words as they are intended so we can communicate effectively about something in the world. To argue otherwise is naive, dishonest, and quite honestly just annoying.
Hi I’m new to this debate and I agree with you that language matters and all that stuff you said at the end. That being said, I’m firmly in the camp of “LLMs are bad, but a ‘true’ AI would be even worse for us”. I could type up several paragraphs diving into the several reasons why I think that way, but to save time (and to get back to my job) I’m just going to steal this Frank Herbert quote:
Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them
Do I think AI, in a vacuum, is always bad and will be no matter who or what makes it? No, not necessarily. But whatever we build will be inherently, and intrinsically tied to the micro- and macro-systems of our society, which are all DEEPLY fucked. Consequently, any AI we bring in would also, even if not initially, end up as being equally, deeply, fucked and end up being far, FAR more detrimental than positive
Yeah true AI would be quite insane. Especially if it was behind human capabilities.
There’s just no way to ensure it’s aligned towards good. We can’t even define that ourselves. Who knows the suffering we could unleash on ourselves.
What does true AI even mean? What do any of the things you guys say even mean? What?
Not a LLM. LLMs aren’t intelligent they are pretty much just pattern matching. No world model or real reasoning capabilities
we can argue what actual ai would be, as long as we agree that it remains very firmly in the realm of science fucking fiction, just this side of inertial dampener fields and FTL travel.
I do agree that any ai made by this society as it exists would be apocalyptic. all its stories about ‘evil ai’ are just metaphors for itself. we have already given up our thinking to computers (which don’t yet think) and corporations and kings and markets. we fucking love giving up our thinking. it’s like the whole appeal of fascism for most fascists.
i wonder how he ended up on “might”?
You’ll find in general that smart people very rarely speak in absolutes on things such as this. Because the more you know about something the more you realize how much you don’t know.
We don’t know the end result yet.
You’ve got to have a little wiggle room. Just in case.
I ‘might’ not eat a tub of ice cream later on and then sit on the toilet crying until my legs go numb, buuuuuut…
This is why I wanted a TV in the bathroom…
too late, 3 years of layoffs, and more layoffs whent he bubble burst likely wont bring it back before 2023.
You don’t use it, you lose it. And many people are already bankrupt in the old brain department as is…
I haven’t written a line of code since 2019. I have an old iOS project that I want to revive, but I genuinely wonder if I still have the ability to do anything with it. Fortunately, my motivation has tanked even harder than my programming skills.
This is a good use for an LLM, to help ease you back into things, and get you up and running with some momentum.
bet you’re still better than me! take a shot! need drugs to help?
need drugs to help?
Probably so. I also haven’t smoked weed since 2021, and I never coded sober.
that might be a bigger issue. someone get this lady a joint!
I’m no lady! It’s a Kids in the Hall reference. And I can’t smoke any more because I’m now a school bus driver.
well, at least there’s still LSD.
wait not even on your day off?
huh, if only we stopped sooner…
