If they could draw or make music, they wouldn’t need a robot to do it, and they clearly want to but don’t have the skills.
Doubt.
You spend so much time using your clock and calculator on your phone you clearly want to be an engineer but don’t have the skills.
That’s actually a really illuminating analogy.
I can’t say I understand what people get out of playing with LLMs, but if they view writing code or drawing pictures like I view using a calculator then that explains a lot of the disconnect between the two camps.
I would 100% let some model draw me up a comic to shitpost without a second thought, and it by no means should be construed to mean that I wish I had chosen art for a career or a major or even a hobby.
Interestinger and interestinger. So you wish you could create the art (or pictures, whatever term you want to use), but the way you do it doesn’t matter, so you just use the LLM because that’s the easiest way to do it?
Would you normally try to soup something up in paint, or just do something else? I mean like before you could generate it with natural language.
Yeah I’ve done some minor photoshop before but that isn’t really the point.
It’s not even that I wish I could do it. Sometimes I think of a stupid meme like the “well yes but actually no” pirate and a picture of Mr Bean and Sean Bean or something and I could let an LLM shit that side by side out instead of using meme generator and like 10 minutes of thought. Or I could just… Not. I actually haven’t ever, but people who say “oh just draw it even if it’s stick figures” are full of shit. If I want to make a comic I’ll just do it who cares how.
Of course there is value in art, but that value doesn’t come in proportion to the huge number of people studying it and it doesn’t come from comics or memes either in my estimation. I don’t/wouldn’t use a language model for those things because I have penis envy, but rather because it’s easy for dicking around. People asking for relationship advice to Claude are also not secretly wishing they had gone to school for a BS in psych.
At the risk of being dismissive, people with liberal arts or art degrees can cool their tits: basically no one is using LLMs because we secretly wish we had gone down that road, and the ones that do… Well… Bless their hearts they are a small and special minority.
Thanks for taking the time to go into it. It seems like people are having this conversation in every community and every friend group and most of the time it’s just people talking past each other.
I don’t personally use llms anymore, but when I did, it was for use cases where either I wanted a thing to be reasonably easy/fast or I would do without (a character sketch for DnD) or for visual representations that quick google searches weren’t turning up.
I watched a video where someone sent AI images to dress makers so they could make dresses. If I wanted a very specific type of dress, and I can’t draw this seems like a great way to communicate my desires and intentions.
I realize I’m a little bit of a liar. I will sometimes use Be My AI to help alt-text/caption pictures that happen to have a lot going on. So they get a list of snacks instead of something like “table with various snacks”.
So just FYI the rule of thumb with alt text that I’ve heard is: imagine you’re describing the picture you’re looking at to someone you’re talking on the phone with.
So that usually means keeping it brief and precise to only the aspects which are relevant to the context it’s being posted in.
Sorry if you’ve heard this already, but yet helped me a lot.
I upvote you because yes, but also I have a few light independent (non sighted) coworkers who like all the details.
This is basically just taking a shit on the sidewalk and leaving it there.
Ok? So is Mimi comics and pizzacake if you ask me.
If that were true, there would be people saying they are engineers for doing this.
There aren’t.
But there’s people saying they’re artists and musicians for making slop…
I’m a musician, dudes come up to me like listen to this song I made, and it’s obviously suno…
I call them out on it and they’re like mumble mumble.
Is ai the only tool which makes a form of artwork “not count” for you or anything else?
The question has never been whether people want it. I think it’s pretty clear they do. The problem is whether people want to spend the time in money, or skill, to get it.
I would love to be able to paint sci-fi pinups. But do I want to trade 10k hours of other stuff I’m already better at to do it? Once I painted them, would I truly love the work, or would I just see all the imperfections and be grumpy about it?
Artists have it hard. They spend unending hours on their passion and, in the end, see everything through a critical lens. And when they spend a month of time on something amazing, no one wants to trade a day of salary to own a copy, or a month of salary to own the original.
AI is so wildly popular because it’s cheap, and through the lens of the consumer (read untrained eye), the best of it evokes emotions they get from a piece that would go for hundreds or thousands of dollars.
The true fucked up part. If the courts all say NFG, dump all your diffusion models that are full of copyrighted material. They’d just go back and commission artists in distressed places and rebuild the models from properly purchased material and we’ll be right back where we are.
Still image diffusion isn’t even expensive to run,
AI is so wildly popular because it’s cheap, and through the lens of the consumer (read untrained eye), the best of it evokes emotions they get from a piece that would go for hundreds or thousands of dollars.
I just went to an art museum that had a bunch of Van Gogh’s sunflower pieces on display, and I can assure you, AI art will never be able to invoke the kind of emotional response as I got from looking at those paintings. I’m not an artist, I haven’t taken an art class since high school, so my eye is pretty damn untrained. But even I can appreciate the history of the pieces, the artist behind the work, the headspace he was in and how it affected the finished piece, the extreme conditions he had to overcome just to finish some of the pieces. That’s a huge part of what evokes emotion in an art piece - knowing the story of the art and the artist. And that’s something AI art will never have.
AI art is cheap, sure, but it’s hollow, and people will always be able to tell that.
The first time I saw Rembrandt’s work in person I felt this sort of awe. It wasn’t just a picture of a painting in a book or an image made by a computer, they felt like time machines, a hole in the wall with a real person from the 1600s sitting on the other side looking back at me. I don’t think we need to limit ourselves to just the masters but they do a fantastic job at making a point, real art is an experience not just something to look at
Have you considered the end result is not the purpose? The doing of art is what gives it meaning, to the artist and the viewer. It’s what makes it satisfying, even if it didn’t turn out how you wanted exactly.
The end result is what other people see and what gets you paid. That’s why people want to do it via AI.
Personally, I could sink 10k hours into whatever visual art and I’ll never be good at it. I don’t enjoy it either. I can only hire an expensive artist or use AI if I want something made. Since using AI art sucks, I’ve opted not to continue work on the video game I started work on a while ago. An alternative is to pay for asset packs from a studio that sells them, but then it’s just an asset flip.
How soullessly capitalist it is to think the only purpose of art is what money you can make off of it. Who cares about meaning, the almighty dollar is the only thing important in life.
is not the purpose? The doing of art is what gives it meaning, to the artist and th
I’m in a business that has a lot of artists. These are observations I make.
I’m also in the business of art abd I’m standing by what I said.
have a nice one
edit: Ohh a downvote from agent_nycto on “have a good one”, in that case, welcome to my blocklist of people that aren’t worth hearing from, don’t worry you’re in like company with all the other trolls.
It’s tough to prevent that type of culture when art organizations aren’t even disallowing the use of AI anymore.
My sibling is trying to launch an AI music career and it drives me off a fucking cliff. No shit, one of the songs they made was used at a funeral and I nearly barfed. What’s worse, whenever I try to talk any sort of serious subject, about shit in the world, or what I’m dealing with in my personal life, their advice is to find a creative outlet Iike theirs.
Looking forward to the holidays after that banger they prompted for my birthday!
I was in on Suno super early. I write my own lyrics and beats and music but couldn’t record voice (poor), so I’d put it in there and it’s shocking how well it works.
So I figured, let’s defraud a bunch of people on Spotify and get money, and then I thought about it and was like, what kind of scumbag would do such a thing, and dropped the idea and stopped using suno.
Honestly as a musician what I was hoping Suno would be is an intelligent loop pedal or backing generator that I could plug my instruments in and be supported by when there’s not enough people for a whole band. I was so disappointed it’s basically a slop generator.
I think a better tool for me would be a normal loop pedal which can be be disciplined in tempo by the drummer in real time.
Disgusting. I’d crawl out of my grave and strangle someone if they pulled this.
Try getting through to them by generating a song calling them a loser.
Truthfully you sound like you’re trying to bring someone down who is having a good time. I’m a pro artist from before AI and doing even better now that people can being their ideas to me in a way that looks better than scratches on napkin.
AI didn’t make it so you can’t make money off music and writing. That ship sailed long ago. You do that shit for the love of the game. A human doing it makes it worth more now not less.
deleted by creator
The problem is the fucking stealing of other people works.
You haven’t heard the songs.
What the fuck is an “AI music career”? Like, they’re writing prompts for AI songs and then hoping people will pay money for this songs?
Yes. Has quite a playlist on Spotify or something like it.
They’re also stealing music from REAL musicians like me and trying to sell it and replace us. Fuck em, hope they fucking die.
Desired isn’t the same thing as important.
Has nobody considered the angle that slopping is fun? It doesn’t make you an artist, nor an author, nor a musician. But it makes a thing at your direction and you can point at it and say “this vaguely resembles the idea in my brain”. For some people, that’s enough.
(this has been part 4 on my Nuanced Opinions Regarding AI)
I literally havent considered that. Probs should. It was really fun for me for a short while, but I never wanted to share my creations or pass it off as my own.
“Make a tank out of liqorice allsorts but have Big Bird hanging out the top using a stick of liquorice as a cigar” “hahahahaha thats really funny”.
It got boring fast though.
That was my perspective as well. Once that immediate novelty wore off I started to look at people still playing with it and wondering what they’re seeing that I’m not.
But I guess people like different things. Like I hate reality TV shows, but those are plenty popular.
It’s still theft. Nobody gave permission for their work to be used as training data.
I agree. Sam Altman and his ilk deserve prison for stealing every intellectual property on the internet (among other crimes).
Sir and or madam, I would like to subscribe to Nuanced Opinions Regarding AI facts.
part 1: https://lemmy.world/post/52423516/26039575
part 2: https://lemmy.world/post/52446320/26057464
part 3: https://lemmy.world/post/52700982/26163401
i don’t know how to do lemmy compliant links
If people got a proper art education they would know drawing is more fun.
I HATE LLMs
But it can be fun, a little part of the problem specifically for LLMs they are addicting. Image generation version less so unless it’s for porn
But I mean these things are great for shit posts
LLMs are designed to be addictive.
If you set the settings (that should be on by default) it will be more of a tool than something that foeces you to interact with.
Examples:
Don’t let them ask questions if they are not needed. You prompt it not the other way around.
Turn off compliments and ask for more negative feedback.
Make sure it doesn’t pretend to be human with feelings and actual personality.I found these pretty useful rules.
I think that the kinds of people who would find the lying machine addictive would probably also find gambling mechanics in video games addictive. Also regular porn can be addictive to some people as well. I’m not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that these specific issues are not unique to generative ai.
They’re great for shitposts? I thought the point of shitposts was they take no effort. Wouldn’t putting an extra service in the loop just complicate it?
That’s why the zeitgeist needs more time to settle on the perception of LLMs. It’s a cool toy, but people shouldn’t be getting it in their head that it gives them a shortcut to becoming a professional.
You gotta understand what it’s good for as a tool and realize it’s not going to do your job for you.
The problem is that it’s utility is basically inversely correlated with your skill on a given subject because you can’t reasonably hope to guide it to what you actually want if you aren’t already pretty skilled. Similarly, how much “benefit” or “coolness” it provides you is also inversely correlated with your skill but with like 3x the slope of utility.
If you are needing to navigate a pool of text as an expert in a field, it’s obscenely useful and the holes/pitfalls are super evident. The less skilled you are as a user the more magical and beneficial it all looks, which is scary.
the problem is that it’s utility is basically inversely correlated with your skill
I’ve thought this exact thing too, I’m sure many of us have. AI is really you get what you give, literally. If you’re educated, well read, know how to write and interact and think critically and have some technical skill, it can be massively useful.
If you don’t you just get mental masturbation.
Edit:
It’s like, I hate cars. I want them dead, gone, erased.
And I can acknowledge their utility.
In slightly more than a day, I got a working save editor generated by my local AI, a Qwen-Next model. Given a couple more years of AI development, I will be able to have some really old and obscure games remastered.
Wow. That’s a phenomenal comment. In my human opinion. Very cogent.
I think AI can be great for this. It can make so many thing accessible to people that could not otherwise. Your example here is good and there are some legitimately fun AI songs.
The key is being able to discriminate something you’ve done for fun and being a serious artist. The problem becomes when people conflate something they’ve done as a fun hobby as being worthy of sitting next to human created art.
I’ve used AI to code lots of things for personal use that I wouldn’t have had the time to complete otherwise. The difference is, I use them personally and don’t release them as a serious software product.
Eh. I don’t think it says anything at all about their desire to be an artist. I think it says a lot more about their:
- greed (desire to be paid, regardless of what they’re being paid for)
- cheapness (not wanting to pay a proper artist)
- antisocial (as in: counter to the ethos of social collaboration; not as in “I want to be a potato today”) tendencies
- low ethical standards (not caring that the training sets for all of this are built almost exclusively from stolen contracts)
- self aggrandizement / narcissism (claiming aptitude and credit in a domain that you don’t actually have any skill in, but pretending you do anyways)
I don’t think wanting or not wanting to be able to do art is a major aspect of this at all. It’s largely about wanting the money and, sometimes, the recognition, without doing any of the work it normally takes for humans to get to that point of expertise.
People don’t go to RISD to learn to be an artist, they go for the connections.
It’s also time. People want to create but learning practising. Getting through the “I suck” stage is rough.
Been in mine for several decades now.
I don’t think that stage ever stops for anyone
I keep wanting to get more into music, but can never find the time/motivation to practice my scales.
I also tend to pick an instrument and abandon it every few years. I have nieces and nephews who occasionally get a second hand instrument.
Weirdly, I started to lost my sight a year or so ago, I had already coded a bunch of prototype games but if I can’t read it’s hard to code… might as well do the art side (my vision is like distorted I can still see but not whatever I’m looking directly at, like reading)
I’ve enjoyed the journey. Got a few games out and a Kickstarter brewing to spend time on the artwork.
My eyes let me follow my dreams by forcing me to lose my job 😂
Creating a piece of art myself is different than enjoying someone else’s creation. There’s a place for both. Lots of respect for, say, professional musicians. They have natural skills and years of hard work that I don’t and no amount of hobbying will get me close to them. But I still find satisfaction in twiddling around on a piano and writing my own tunes. AI helping people enjoy their hobby more is a good application, IMO.
Contrast that with people using it to “side-hustle” and try to scrape up some easy dollars by flooding the world with passionless slop, that’s a different thing.
Ya, I enjoy playing guitar and making little finger picking riffs. I also enjoyed using music gen to mix different styles together and writing lyrics for them (eventually, it gets a bit old though).
I never even considered uploading those songs and sharing them, nor starting to churn out slop to make 5 bucks on Spotify. It’s legit asshole behavior imo. Spotify itself makes it hard enough to make money when you are a proper musician, I’m guessing it’s even harder now.
Ai isn’t their hobby
No amount of AI in the creation of music is good. Learn how to not use it.
I respectfully disagree and think hobbies are for enjoyment. If someone makes music for personal enjoyment with the help of AI tools, good for them. If another person finds joy in making “real” music without AI assist, good for them too.
So long as they know they’re making artificial music.
Relevant
XKCDSMBCReal art comes from a person’s desire to connect with the world around them, or to try and express what they can’t using words. Either way, art is entirely human. AI makes sounds and images. It’s not art.
There’s a reason why AI is called artificial.
We finally have a proper rigid definition for what art is !
Why didn’t anyone think of drawing the line in the sand before? I can’t believe you are the first, it seems so simple now that you said it.
What a dumass response.
This… this is the reasonable course that’s shunned by our divisive culture nowadays. I personally don’t have the time or the space, but I do have a computer, so I use what tools I have. Local models ftw
I’ll take my downvotes now 😞
Jk, I’m on an instance that disables downvotes. Meaning folks have to write coherent comments for me to be aware they think I’m dumb/wrong/eeeeevil.
I could see tinkering with local models being a very satisfying hobby. I’ve always been curious about how accurate they can get on sentiment. E.g., a southern US woman saying “bless your heart” can have implied condescension while other regions it may be more of a straightforward good-faith comment; how and how well does a model get trained on that sort of thing.
Oh bitch please.
I agree. I think AI fills a creativity gap for average users - worth making quickly once, not worth pursuing an artist to make it.
I don’t think AI will replace appreciation for human art, as human art is as much about soul as it is skill. AI can only ever do half the equation, but it’s the half that the average person doesn’t have and isn’t quite willing to pursue.
I’m sure there’s an argument to be made that AI copying human art is watering down the value of art, but with how people recoil after finding out it’s AI, I think the bigger risk is never having it disclosed in the first place.
I don’t think that it fills a creativity gap. It circumvents it. It’s a parasite. It gets in the way of you actually being creative and gives you a cheap dopamine hit instead of anything of substance. People learning how to do the things they want to do is what actually bridges that gap.
I agree with you, for true art and creativity, absolutely. Maybe I mistook your post.
My read of “want to pretend to be artists” was that the people who aren’t interested in learning those skills didn’t become less likely to do so because of AI, but may became marginally more artistic through its usage. Then I kind of sidebarred about soul and peoples’ abhorrence for AI art
There’s “skills,” and then there’s innate talent, and then there’s practice. Anyone who embraces AI art clearly doesn’t have the innate talent to recognize it’s crap, and their rabid eagerness to jump on the latest trend implies they probably doesn’t have the patience required for practice either.
Not that music and art classes and exposure aren’t important, but 12 years of mandatory gym classes definitely didn’t turn me into an athlete (if anything, it made me hate physical activity. Maybe if we had gone on hikes instead of playing dodgeball…)
But you know how to play dodgeball. Do you know what composition is?
If not, or even the fact that question is tricky for people, is to illustrate my point. People want to be able to draw, and we aren’t being taught how.
Sure I know how to play dodgeball, and I’ve had many, many gym classes worth of practice, but I was always absolute shit at it. Similarly, you can teach composition (or color theory or whatever other art technique you want), and have your students practice it, but most are never going to be more than just okay at creating art. “People just need to be taught the arts and then they won’t be seduced by the siren song of AI!” assumes that education can overcome innate limitations. I will never be a good athlete, just as most people will never be good artists/musicians/writers. Meanwhile here’s a tool that will produce (what AI users think is) an impressive facsimile of the real thing, and at a fraction of the effort with almost no barrier to entry.
I feel that the idea that only certain magically wired people can be artists is a myth. I also think that our idea that only good artists are valid is some capitalistic nonsense. “Bad” artists are also valid artists, and our attitude around people creating things should change.
Arts in school is just a tool to proliferate and transmit cultural values to the next generation to upkeep a certain base line in the population. Can’t change my mind (but im open to constructive criticism and input)
Here’s how to draw in two point perspective kids!
Sit fuming in the back fucking capitalist pigs trying to shove America down my throat fuck you Mrs. Dotterson I’m too woke to learn how to draw
I mean… yeah and so? Public schools exist specifically to create a baseline of knowledge and experience in the population. It’s part of a social contract that says, “by the time they reach adulthood, a person should be able to read, write, do math, and not want to burn everything down or kill people.”
Those values are shared by most of the world. It’s not surprising that schools reinforce those things, because that’s very specifically what they were created for. The alternative would be what? Not have schools?
