- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
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And insurance companies add nothing to healthcare. They contribute nothing. They streamline nothing. And THEY are the ones who make your health care decisions for you, NOT your doctor.
Got a back problem that could be easily fixed by surgury? Well screw that, insurance isn’t paying for that. But they’ll be happy to put you on painkillers for the rest of your life so you’ll be stuck in a parasitic relationship where you have pay them forever to afford your pain meds.
They only exist to transfer wealth from sick, financially vulnerable people to the billionaire class.
And it’s also bad science and bad philosophy.
Insurance works on probabilities. They pick the most likely outcome based on old population studies (not current ones - so they lag behind epidemics). This means that if you have a pet alligator, and it bit off your toe, insurance would disbelieve you and would say the accident was most likely from a vehicle or tool, and then wouldn’t treat you for salmonella or other concerns from an alligator bite because that’s unlikely to occur in the general population. Even though that’s literally what happened here.
So the way they practice medicine is stupid and bad. It should also be illegal, because to practice medicine you’re by law suppose to have a doctor patient relationship. I’ve never met the doctors at my insurance company. So how can they prescribe (including deny) treatment for me?
Further, I have privacy concerns with insurance companies as well. I don’t want them to have all my medical information. I don’t want them to code my information in a way that benefits their insurance system but isn’t accurate to my actual diagnosis.
I want to go into a doctor and actually be treated by that fucking doctor.
Remember when they said socialized healthcare stops you from seeing the doctor you want? Well our current system, in all its justice, let’s me see the doctor I want, pay her, and then I can’t get the treatments she recommends because they aren’t approved by an anonymous third doctor at my insurance I didnt choose and never met. Lol. Fml.
I don’t want them to code my information in a way that benefits their insurance system but isn’t accurate to my actual diagnosis.
My fiancee has been dealing with this for like 2 years. She got a relatively simple bloodwork panel done, and the NP who ordered it fucked up the code/paperwork for it by labeling it as something more expensive than it actually was, which resulted in the insurance not covering it, which resulted in a $1k bill for what should have been a $20 test.
The bill was sent to collections, and they were told that the bill was erroneous because the NP fucked up the paperwork. They’re still calling 2 years later. They don’t seem to get the hint that my fiancee is disabled, has no wages, and no way to pay it*, and therefore they ain’t getting shit.
* Fortunately it is within my means to pay for it for her, but she has no wages for them to garnish, they can’t mess with her credit score over it, and so they have no pathway to do any harm for failure to pay. So fuck em.
I have random genetic diagnoses on my chart because my doctor lied to my insurance to get a test approved. I can’t rat her out because I did really need the test but yeah it’s a nightmare
The succinct way to describe it is that every dollar earned in profit by a health insurance company is a dollar that was spent on health care for which no healthcare was delivered. Their profits are literally just inefficiency in the system, and they’re directly incentivized to maximize that inefficiency.
I’m currently fighting a bill because insurance doesn’t like who gave the diagnosis. The diagnosis isn’t wrong, it’s actively being treated, they just think the wrong doctor gave it. Dealing with insurance is a huge pain in the ass for no reason except to enrich the insurance companies. They add no value to society.
And insurance companies add nothing to healthcare. They contribute nothing.
They give me a pile of paperwork and an illusion of choice. What more could I ask for?
This is exactly why Obamacare is absolute trash. It forces you to buy into a failed system or pay monthly penalties. For a healthy individual, it’s cheaper to pay put of pocket when necessary, than monthly dues in addition to your “deductable”.
I live in Sweden, had a surgery for a back problem. From first consultation to surgery 5 weeks. Total cost: $50, that includes surgery, prescribed meds, food while admitted.
May I ask what the money paid for exactly? Here in Spain it’s only meds that we would pay for (and not even if you’re low income and entitled to government money), everything else is 100 % free
Really USA, how does anyone pretend this is OK?
Really USA, how does anyone pretend this is OK?
We pretend a LOT of things are OK.
- School shootings comes to mind.
- laws around what women can do with their own bodies.
- Sacrifice of the environment for industry, all in the name of “jobs”.
- Starvation.
- Politicians and presidents doing obviously illegal stuff and citizens unable to do anything about it.
- American military killing with abandon all over the world.
- Police brutality and systematic violations of our rights, with little to no accountability.
- Our standards for clean food being less than everyone elses.
- Religious supremacy being tolerated, even encouraged. (Fuck your moments of silence, fuck your thoughts and prayers, fuck your pledges of allegience too while we’re at it)
- controlled media.
- Book banning.
- the “war” on drugs when other methods would have been much more effective.
- whistleblower protections dismantled.
- violence against protesters, and the existence of “protest zones” which disallows protests entirely in most areas.
- continual threats of violence and domestic terrorism by the political right, never with any accountability.
- oppression of anyone who says they are anti-fascist (antifa).
- a political system complteely captured by bribery and foreign interests, with ~1% correlation to what citizens want. There is no representation in “representitive democracy” here. Its all a big joke. We’re barely even a “republic” anymore.
And its not all republicans doing it-- although much more them than the dems-- although the dems are sliding really far rightward pretty quickly and its hard to see how it ever will be allowed to go back left.
and, overall it would cost about half what we’re paying now as a nation for health care.
And the outcomes would be better.
Doctors would actually spend time with patients instead of jumping through hoops for insurance denials. Yes, their staff handles much of it, but there are insurance issues that they end up having to deal with directly, wasting their time.
At my last physical my doctor when on a short rant about insurance. Told me that the reason that there is so much burnout and a high suicide rate among medical professionals isn’t due to their primary job function, helping people become healthier, it was due to having to deal with insurance companies bullshit.
It must really suck to be a good hearted doctor in that system. When every incentive is to push unnecessary interventions and you must encounter patients that can’t or won’t accept your help because it would ruin them or their family financially.
Patients could get medical care early on instead of letting medical issues worsen until they become emergencies, which also results in more expensive treatments and worse outcomes
Doctors would actually spend time with patients instead of jumping through hoops for insurance denials.
If you think doctors don’t have to spend time jumping through hoops for insurance companies in countries with socialized healthcare I have some bad news for you.
Living in a country with universal health care. Doctors have limited time for each patient. Many people complain about it.
There’s no system where doctors have unlimited time for each patient.
And that doesn’t even count the extra that people are paying for private insurance. How much the government spends per capita (of the whole country) on healthcare is double what other first world countries pay even though in the USA it only covers a third of US citizens.
Think of the knock off effects of universal health care beyond paying less.
you would not be tied to a shitty job anymore - your ability to quit and move to another company becomes easier
You could quit your job and start your own company since now you don’t have to worry about medical bankruptcy
Or maybe you live a minimal enough of a life that you could quit your job that you have only because of the health insurance and go do something that is fulfilling to you?
A huge reason that I took the job I have now is because they let me start my health insurance plan asap. It was supposed to be after 3 months but I just asked nice and they didn’t hesitate to agree even without my whole spcheil. I have a wife and a son, at the time my wife was still going through some post pregnancy health issues and my son was going through some stuff that required regular visits. I turned down some cushy jobs solely because they wanted me to wait 3-6 months to be insured, which I get from a business perspective, but what the actual fuck? It took me a while to switch jobs for that reason alone. I guess it’s a good indicator of a company that has common sense/common decency.
I’ve had jobs where you have to wait for 401k but Healthcare has always been covered on day 1.
Wait is that normal? The last 3 jobs I’ve had had a waiting period of at least a month.
Has been been for me.
Why the waiting time? What’s the risk on their part if they insure you immediately?
I always assumed it had to with whatever cost comes with adding someone to the insurance plan + the cost they’re paying. They want to make sure the person is going to stick around. But to me that just seems like the cost of doing business.
US healthcare is extortion
Not having to formulate all those packages with their arcane coverage percentages, exclusions and deductibles would eliminate a lot of cost, not to mention all the marketing the companies do to make their plans sound better than the others.
I showed this to my mom, and her reply was “but that socialism!” And promptly hung up on me.
Some people are so stupid and stubborn that they would rather be bilked by conmen than to actually get the care they need, affordably.
That’s kind of bullshit we’re dealing with.
Don’t try to explain public roads, bridges, dams, water & sewerage, police, fire brigades or the military to her… she might just have an aneurysm.
Insurance IS socialism. By definition. The only difference is who holds the money from the group to pay out claims. In one, it’s the government which has an incentive to keep costs low across the board. The other it is a private company trying to make as much profit as possible.
The bullshit part is how many people think socialism is wrong or evil. It’s just an approach where the people work together to provide a service where the focus is the service itself rather than anyone getting rich from the service.
“so, mom, you’d rather i die than receive affordable health care?”
She’s rich, so all of that will never affect her. But she sure as shit would rather I die and every other one of “the poors” than to pay even one penny more in taxes.
Accurate portrayal of Joe Lieberman in that pic. Didn’t feel bad when that dude died. The cherry on top would have been if he’d had tons of medical debt when he went, but I’m sure he still had million in the bank from all that lobby loot.
The US Healthcare system is meant to police disability, because we live in a giant work camp. That’s its whole function.
It’s also a way to make sure people don’t leave crappy jobs or, even worse, start their own businesses that might compete against the already established ones.
It’s got to end soon, or we’re well screwed.
My insurance payment + my jobs contribution (can’t say whether or not they lie on the form about their share) is over a thousand per month. And I still have co-pays and shit that isn’t covered. I’ve had a couple of X-rays and and a sling this year. I’m probably out another $2k on top of my insurance. It would be much cheaper for me to pay out of pocket and save the difference for a rainy day.
Fuck the entire insurance industry.
And the concept of tying it to employment is not only idiotic and nonsensical, but actually pretty devious.
Who is paying 20% to just health care?
A little over 20% includes taxes as well out of my pay.
Covering my family at my last job was $1,200 a month. That was about 30% of my wage.
Holy shit. How big was your family…
I think mine is ~$800, and that’s pretty decent insurance.
For reference, in Belgium state mandated health care (RSZ) is about 40% of your income (1).
There is copay on things like glasses, hospitalization costs, … With additional (optional) insurance for those.
I feel like there’s a lot of misinformation spread around EU health insurance.
Readers added the following context:
Untrue.
It’s 13%.
It covers both heath care and social care (old people’s homes and help for elderly or disabled).
You’re referring to
The employee’s share of social security taxes is 13.07% of the total gross compensation, with no cap.
From source (1), I assume.
It’s true that the other 27% is taken from your wages by your employer, before it reaches you. But what’s the difference? Is it not still your take home pay that gets reduced by 40% for the purposes of health insurance?
Tell me you don’t understand taxation without telling me you don’t understand taxation.
Please, explain
If Johnny has 100 apples and the Belgian government gives 13 of them to some folk in hospital or care homes and Johnny doesn’t ever spend a penny on health care, how many apples does he have, and what does it matter to Johnny if his employer who has tens of thousands of apples has to give some of them to the folks in hospital instead of to the shareholders?
If Jimmy has 150 apples and the US government takes 20 of them and he gives 50 of them to his health insurer to pay down debt and then has to remortgage his house to pay for his Mum’s cancer treatment, how much better off do you think Jimmy really is?
“The United States has the world’s highest per capita health care costs—about double those of other wealthy nations”
Let’s do Johhny’s accounting in the first example:
Johnny works for a month and made 100 apples (Dt.), and 40 apples debt (Cr.) to RSZ.
His employer takes 27 and gives it to RSZ. Johnny receives 73 apples. His ledger reads 73 Dt, 13 Cr.
Johny then has to give 13 apples to RSZ. Johnny now has 60 apples (Dt.), and has no more debt (0Cr.) to RSZ.
Johnny cares because of his 100 apples worth of work, he gets to keep 60.
Lol.
Johnny made 400 apples for the company, who gave him 100, the government took 13 and he got 87. The government also took 27 of the 250 apples (left after rent, heating, lighting cleaning and maintenance costs) that the company had wanted to keep for the executive pay and shareholders. They complained bitterly about how expensive it was and lied to Johnny that they would definitely have given him all of those 27 apples, honestly, definitely, if only the nasty government hadn’t stolen them for a bunch of very undeserving sick people and elderly people who were just making Johnny poorer.
Last year, when Johnny made 30 more apples than usual, he got a one apple bonus, the chief executive got a 10 apple bonus and the shareholders got the other 19.
Maybe I’m blind, but I don’t see any mention of healthcare costs on the source you gave.
Per the OECD website, per capita healthcare spending in the US is the worst amongst the entire OECD, and Belgium is comparable to France and Sweden. Not the best, but far from the worst (and not accounting for better healthcare outcomes).
I don’t have sources on hand, but the US in general rates the worst for healthcare outcomes too.
that’s because they cite incorrect data.
“social security” is not health care fund; and 40% is employer and employee combined (employee only is ~ 13%) contribution. social security is pensions, survivor benefits, unemployment, sickness and maternity leave, etc.
employee share of contribution to public health insurance fund is (iirc) only 3.55%
employee share of contribution to public health insurance fund
If your employer takes part of your wages and pays, or you take part of your wages and pay. What’s the difference?
The “employee share” vs “employer share” makes no difference?
Even if you were making the point you think you’re making… The US already has employer-contributions to health care, and its a whole lot. My experience likely isn’t the norm as I’m in a union position, but my employer foots the bill for something like ~70% of my health insurance. They take a chunk out of my paycheck, but it’s still only maybe 1/3 of what it actually costs.
So if you want it to be a fair comparison, you’re going to have to take that into consideration too. If you’re suggesting that an employer in an EU nation will pay someone less because they have to shell out to contribute to their health insurance, then you need to realize that the same conditions are present here.
It’s not really fair to only include that on one side of the equation, when it is happening on both sides.
That’s a fair point I did not consider. Thank you.
I’m mainly confused about the “5% of your paycheck” claim made here.
It’s way, way higher in places that do have universal healthcare, all things considered.
People unfamiliar with the system seem to often have unrealistic expectations, exacerbated by political propaganda.
As usual with those sorts of memes, the numbers are completely wrong. European nations spend around 11-12% of GDP on healthcare vs about 17% for the US. So you’d likely pay significantly less (about 30% less) with a similar public healthcare system, but far more than this pic pretends.
Remember kids, don’t believe everything you see on the internet.
US GDP is much higher than most (all?) European nations. California, on its own, is the fifth (at least the last time I looked) largest GDP in the world when compared to nations.
The US also has a massive population, which means a much larger insurance pool, which means the risk is spread out over a much larger swathe of people (and ethnicities, lifestyles, etc.).
So I’m not going to say this pic is accurate, as I have no actual numbers on this… But I also don’t think it’s fair to assume that it will cost the same % of GDP as nations that are a fraction of our size (and are often nearly homogeneous population-wise).
US GDP is much higher than most (all?) European nations.
And as you accurately pointed out, US population is also higher, and have different costs of living. Which is why we compare countries in % of GDP and not in raw dollars spent nationwide, which would make no sense at all.
The US also has a massive population, which means a much larger insurance pool, which means the risk is spread out over a much larger swathe of people (and ethnicities, lifestyles, etc.).
Doesn’t make any difference when you go over a few million people (or possibly much less)
So I’m not going to say this pic is accurate, as I have no actual numbers on this
Well I do, and this pic is clearly bullshit.
Just because you like the message doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to point out obvious lies.
Well yeah but percentage of GDP is just the total spent. The point is that the USA relies primarily on employers paying for the insurance (through a pay cut) whereas in the EU it is generally subsidised with taxes. Which, if you tax fairly, means that the cost of healthcare is better for the average worker (e.g more based on how much any individual earns)
The point is that the USA relies primarily on employers paying for the insurance (through a pay cut) whereas in the EU it is generally subsidised with taxes.
This is a huge misconception. In the EU it’s also funded by the employers, the difference is that it’s usually mandatory (a tax taken out of the paycheck at the employer level) and also typically goes into a governement-run insurance system (ie the British NHS or the French sécu).
Ultimately it’s always people who pay for health care, because companies are just legal entities. The difference is how it’s organized and how much it cost.
