With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.
“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”
I literally just blocked an NSFW lemmit of misogynygonewild and it blew my mind it was even a thing. Fucking trash.
What is a lemmit?
I believe a bot/site that mirrors reddit subreddits to Lemmy communities. It’s anything @lemmit.online
Cesspits like that should be cleansed with fire
Spoilers: there were signs
Sometimes it’s easier to stay with the devil you know than chance the devil you don’t.
You don’t need to stay with a devil at all.
Some women are apparently terrified of being single. I’ve known some who have never been single for more than a few days since they turned 15 or something. I know it can sometimes be more complicated than that, but it’s a contributing factor.
I would argue that being single equates to being alone … and women who are alone are vulnerable as hell.
So (at least sometimes) the devil you know is safer than the devil you don’t.
I’d argue that women who are in abusive relationships or relationships with potential manosphere abusers are less safe than if they were single.
Yeah I don’t really understand this claim.
My partner and I disagree on a lot of things, but I can predict with near certainty where she stands on things because she my partner, we have shared a life together, and I know her.
Yeah, they just didn’t pay attention to their partner. Which, not making excuses, is a good part of how they slip there.
You want a trad wife? Get your sorry ass to work buying her cars, clothes, houses, furnishings so she can focus on making your home. Kids in private school, high class vacations, all of it.
Provider is a title that is earned and I doubt even a thousandth of these blowholes are up to the task of being a trad husband.
Kids in private school, high class vacations, all of it.
The fuck is traditional about any of that?
Are you one of those people who sees a movie about rich people in the past and assume that’s how you would’ve lived?
I’m not sure ML is the right place for you hehe
A lifetime of experience has taught me the fastest way to poke through someone’s hubris is to take their bullshit deadly seriously.
Ah, see, i knew there was a trad wife catch.
Private schools. shudders
The private school is the living room.
Not in that economy, no. That you can’t afford a family with a single income anymore is one of the forces that lead to changing role models. Not that i think it’s a bad thing.
Thank you, I’d rather be a trophy husband than support a tradwife
As long as it’s mutually wanted. One of the women interviewed for the article started building her career later in the marriage, and cites her husband’s anger at her increasing independence as a major factor in their divorce.
One of my (social work) profs advised us this could happen. And then it did to me.
12% of young women support Tate? That’s way higher than what I expected :( I can’t understand why would any woman support someone who makes a fortune out of exploiting and abusing women openly
You must be new to the world, then.
Getting everyone to agree on anything is nigh-impossible.
I once sat next to a couple on the plane and the young woman was showing her bf a video of Tate talking about how men should be stoic and never complain because no one wants to hear that pussy bullshit. She was saying things to him like “You know how you freak out and bitch at me? You should be like him.”
So yeah… there are women out there who like him. They like hardcore traditional gender roles, is probably the base of it, and want a man doing cliche man shit like Tate preaches. Some women are dealt a great hand by traditional standards: big tits, blond hair, nice face, and they would rather settle into being provided for than fuss with all that feminism stuff. It’s idiotic but people believe whatever’s in their interests. And surprise surprise, these women don’t want men to have emotional needs.
These would be the “pick me’s” whether they realize it or not
Women who are raised by misogynists but can’t see past it. Women who have insecurities and can’t see past it. They are latching on to the same order for security cuz it’s all they know. Just a guess
Tradwife content is on the rise for women as well, more and more young people are buying into this mythical simpler past as the world gets more complex, alienating and difficult.
Sorry if a dumb question but what is a “tradwife”? (Not a native speaker)
It is a shortening of “Traditional wife” as in a wife who complies with the old male/female value system. IE the man works and provides for and protects the family while the woman stays at home, cooks, cleans the house, watches the kids, does not talk back to her man because he is the head of the family and runs shit. Her job basically is to make life easier for him and raise his kids.
mythical simple past but they wouldn’t put down the fucking phone. anything but the phone!!
(regardless of gender)
I can understand that but how come being a webcam girl and endure physical and psychological abuse fit in the “tradwife” narrative? It’s particularly support for Tate what I can’t understand
I think this is ambigous. When people are asked “do you support the views of Andrew Tate?” How many actually know these in particular? What if individual views are asked and then if more than 50% are answered with “support” it is considered to support his views overall?
I’ve read enough news to know that Tate is a terrible person and probably a serious criminal. But i would not be able to describe his views, nor do i want to find out what his views are exactly.
All I know about Tate’s views are that he’s a male supremacist of some sort.
And rapist, human trafficker, scammer, etc etc etc.
Scumbucket for short.
Here are three of the research pieces the article uses …
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2024/07/24/plugged-in-tate-misogyny-2/
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2024/07/24/plugged-in-tate-religion/
I looked at the one for mysoginy
One in four of the young people who have heard of Tate have a favourable opinion of him, but there is a clear gender divide: only 12% of female respondents have a positive view, compared to 41% of young men.
We asked young people what they liked about Tate. The top three reasons overall are: “He’s not afraid to push back against ‘woke’ ideology” (24%), “He wants men to be real men” (22%) and “He tells it how it is” (20%). Although it is commonly thought that Tate’s opulent lifestyle, cars and fitness are an entrypoint through which young people become interested in his content, admiration for lifestyle (14%) and humour (11%) do not rank as highly. This suggests that the main pull of Andrew Tate for young people is his hateful activism.
That said, younger Tate supporters aged 16-17 and female respondents are more likely to admire his lifestyle, at 20% and 18% respectively. Putting Tate’s motivational and fitness content within a wider context of his divisiveness and hatefulness, as well as signposting other figures who produce similar lifestyle content without the underlying misogyny, could be an important step in combating his influence on younger, female audiences.
I think the source provides a nuanced picture and offer suggestions how to combat his influence that got lost in the short notion in the guardian article.
Tate’s motivational and fitness content
Speaking of, let me present to you the anti-Tate
The raw numbers maybe obscure this but aren’t the popularity levels are really about how far along the radicalisation they are?
People start watching for the lifestyle and fitness then end up believing the other stuff and watching for that. I guess women stall out more because who could believe that kind of stuff about themselves?
Fair enough, so there is a possibility that this article (or the surveys it’s based on) are being somewhat misleading. I hope you are right
Almost every survey will get 6-10% of people answering yes to the most extreme or batshit crazy option, no matter what.
Probably the main reason is that people are pissed off that they are being approached by survey takers and punish the survey for revenge.
And there are some batshit crazy people out there.
The Lizardman Constant.
And then there are elections.
Same mindset.
“Do you regularly watch videos by Jordan Peterson?” kinda needs to become one of those before-first-date screening questions.
What if the answer is yes, but I’m laughing at him the whole time?
Editing this dumb two day old throwaway comment to point out if you want to actually overcome the rhetoric you disagree with, then you need to pay enough attention to it to actually interact with people who take it seriously, because apparently I’m still getting replies.
Still shows that you’ve got a whole lot of time to waste and that you might be susceptible to eventually fall down the rabbit hole
Ah yes, ridicule famously being a small step from endorsement.
I think the main problem is “regularly watch”
You can ridicule it all you want, if you keep watching it you’re one message you agree with away from starting to consider that “hey, maybe what he’s saying isn’t all wrong” and then down the spiral you go.
There’s tons of people who were on the left that lived an event that traumatized them and they then turned to the right.
I think you have right attitude. No one is immune to propaganda, and you really need to be careful in choosing what you consume.
I’ve been deep diving into right wing propaganda for a decade and still not an incel. Still laughing at the fools and their weak beta energy.
Being able to speak their language is far more impactful. Not for the right wing tool spreading propaganda but rather for the lurker who has doubts.
What’s about him is in the least bit funny or entertaining?
Views = money/support for them. Doesn’t matter if you’re laughing or not.
That’s also bad. You regularly hate-watch him? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?
It should only take you about 15 minutes of watching him to understand his gimmick. He used undefined and undefinable terms like “cultural marxism”. He cherry picks out of context sciencey stuff to back up his point of view. He acts super serial all the time to make people think he’s a serious person. That’s it. You don’t need to watch any more.
Very direct. They could lie about it. Better to ask conceptually I think.
Ask about Lex Fridman: at least for tech geeks it is the antichamber to Joe Rogan and the pandemonium thereafter.
Ok. Tell me about Lex Fridman. I’ve never read that name before.
I believe him to be of Russian descent, and playing hard on the American stereotype of that.
He has had a troubled academic career due to a faulty paper trying to prove Tesla’s Autopilot to make people more attentive.
He has a long standing podcast in which he interviews mostly techbros and politicians such as Musk, Carmack, Trump, Modi and the like for hours at a time. He never really challenges them and lets them speak on whatever they bring up, turning his podcasts into hours-long PR stunts.
Probably a Russian asset, given that in this comment to his conversation with Zelensky he reiterated Trump/Vance talking points.
I have noticed that people who later reveal themselves to be into Joe Rogan and the like first test the waters by asking you if you listened to the latest Fridman podcast. I work in a tech consultancy so I have quite a sample, but it could also be a bubble.
Andrew Rousso made a spot on imitation of the guy here, as usual. It’s worth listening to a Lex Fridman podcast intro just to enjoy Rousso’s imitation.
Hol’up is Carmack a manosphere weirdo?
“What can you tell me about jungian archetypes?”
either that or: ben shapiro, or joe roegan videos.
Weirdly, I know of more women who listen to joe rogan than men (okay, the numbers are 2 to 0, so not that mindblowing). I don’t fucking get it.
It was the same thing with friends who liked Elon Musk before he went fully mask off after buying Twitter. Who he was, and the function he provided, was so completely obvious to anyone who was paying attention. I don’t get how anyone could miss it.
People missed it because they chose to “not pay attention to politics”, leading to right wing indoctrination.
Turns out everything is political.
Does UFC count as watching Joe Rogan videos even if his commentary annoys the shit out of you and you wish he had no part in it? Because he already pisses me off this would be the last straw.
I groan every time they announce he’s on the commentary team. It’s clear he doesn’t actively watch the sport anymore, and he simply can’t avoid hyperbole.
Seriously, I have learned to ignore him so well that last time he was not on the team it took me half the fight to realize "Where is that annoying fucking Rogan has he really not said shit this whole fii… oooohhh sweet. lol
You needs to screen your partners SoMe algorithm
It’s surprising to me that married people are falling for this shit. I thought it was just incels desperate for anything that might give them a chance or an excuse.
There are actors building influence who benefit by more males being this way. They target ladies too, but in different ways. They are determined and focused.
it isn’t about being single, its about the modern hell world instilling extreme helplessness in vulnerable people, and they seek any answers whatsoever. the manosphere happily provides ‘answers’ in exchange for money
It has also seeped into every aspect of male culture. You want to watch a YouTube show about cars? Sure. The first couple episodes are normal and then they start sliding in dumb shit.
You listen to a podcast about working out? Same thing goes. It’s little stuff here and there. Sometimes it starts as a reoccurring joke, but it keeps happening until they actually believe.
I also find there are a lot of young people who aren’t comfortable on computers and basically believe whatever they see on the internet, much like an older generation.
There are people at my work place that I thought that I got along with and then all of a sudden they come out with the most bigoted things that I have ever heard. I straight up do not trust any man my age at this point there are just too many of them that are “hiding their powerlevel”
Yeah, I was enjoying some videos about dumb Steven Seagal movies, but then I realized that every single one would have jokes about women being bad drivers, being overly emotional, etc. At first I took it as a humorous way to look at Seagal’s misogyny, but then it became apparent that it was being applied in other cases where it didn’t make sense. It was subtle, in the context of the rest of the videos, but a definitely present part was the manosphere mentality.
I opened a new YouTube account and watched some videogame videos. Rust if you’re curious. I’m a woman and this game is played by mostly men. At some point my husband was struggling with his mental health, we were in gridlock so I tried to look up male perspective mental health videos to see if i could understand him better or reach him in a new way.
Those two searches alone, unlocked a flood of bullshit into my feed. I couldnt believe the garbage I was bombarded with.
It is akin to how women are pummeled with beauty ads and standards (buy this to be pretty!) since we are young.
They figured out how to market this same insecurity to men. Wild stuff
Edit: except they aren’t just selling “self care” like they do to us, they’re selling hate-
Occasionally my partner does or says some things that remind me of the “manosphere” aka 4chan neckbeards.
And when it happens, we talk about it. I don’t pretend or let it go as “he doesn’t mean it” or “he doesn’t know what he’s saying”. I don’t get mad and he doesn’t get mad. We have an adult discussion and I’m careful not to talk down to him.
A perfect example was that he sometimes says “females” when he means “women”. I explain that it’s not a swear word but it’s still derogatory. I explain why. Once I did, he understood and stopped doing it.
It doesn’t have to be a big deal! Communication is key!
Communication is key
Sure, but honestly it sounds tiring if this kind of discussion is a recurring thing.
Agreed! But for me it’s not all that often, luckily.
Yeah, why can’t he just agree with you on everything right out the gate?
i don’t know how could anyone watch Star Trek DS9 and still call women “females” like a Ferengi
serious answer: by consistently running and reading experiments that refer to male and female patients.
I try my best, but if I’ve read three-four papers in a day about a topic and all of them use male and female, probably gonna accidentally say female.
Funny you say that! He doesn’t do it anymore but I just sent him this meme from [email protected]!
As long as you also made sure that if he does say it again he has to pronounce it like tamales
I laughed at this and now I’m going to do that in my head whenever I see that word
it’s still derogatory
It logically isn’t. While you think that, and anyone spending their future with you should mind it, it doesn’t make it true.
Language isn’t always about logic. Discussing things in terms of male/female is fine in many contexts but is often done when discussing science or medical topics. Ex: the male pelvis has a different, narrower shape than the female pelvis. It’s also used in situations where people are deliberately ‘othering’ people. Watch any police bodycam footage and you’ll see that cops frequently say “male/female” when discussing non-police individuals.
In daily life, most people use men/women for non-scientific discourse. The women’s restroom. A group of men at the restaurant. Etc.
But here’s the thing. Male/female are used for any species (a male beetle), but man/woman are only used for humans.
Assholes like Tate push a twist in this dynamic so that men are called men but women are called females because it can be dehumanizing to women. When you say female you could be talking about an insect, but a man is human. It’s a succinct example of their philosophy. That’s why people consider it derogatory.
It is if you say “man” and “female” instead of “male” and “female”. While it can be a noun, it’s mainly used as an adjective to describe sex.
It’s like saying “A black owns the shop.” Instead of “A black man owns the shop.”
Notice how calling someone “a black” is kinda icky?
if you say “man” and “female” instead of “male” and “female”.
That’s extra cringe if they do: that person needs to sort out their words. Is it not derogatory if they say “male” and “female”?
Notice how calling someone “a black” is kinda icky?
It’s hard cringe & awkward: certain to provoke odd looks.
Referring to someone as an instance of their gender could be icky & cringe. That it’s also derogatory doesn’t follow: the easiest counterexample is “a male”.
What makes you the ultimate authority on what terms a woman can consider “derogatory”? Where do you get the power to decide what words other people should use to describe their own feelings? What makes your opinion about it more valid than those of others?
Have you considered that the same word can make two different people feel two different ways? Unless you’ve got the power to know exactly what another person is feeling, there is nothing that makes your thoughts more valid than the thoughts of others in this matter. Doubling down that “derogatory” isn’t the right word to use gives the impression that you don’t believe “female” actually feels derogatory to a lot of women. Gotta wonder why that might be.
Male’s haven’t been actively repressed as a result of their gender for thousands of years. Simply switching the genders does not work because they’re not equitible terms. Systematically speaking, they come from different backgrounds and expectations.
I take your point that “female” as a durogatory term is relative to the context it’s used in. But we can’t pretend we’ve lived in a world of equal opportunity that treats men and women, males and females, equally in trying to make that point.
The rule of thumb I use is that you shouldn’t use adjectives as nouns when talking about people. The adjective needs a noun to describe.
I was going to comment that, a while ago, I saw someone on Lemmy make almost exactly this comment.
Now I wonder if the person I saw was you or, alternatively, whether you saw the same person.
I don’t recall where it came from. I definitely read it somewhere and didn’t come up with it on my own. Probably here on Lemmy or on Reddit before that! It was the first example I saw that was able to articulate why it doesn’t feel right to say “female” as a noun when referring to a person.
Well, good on you for your progressive perspective and your willingness to express it.
Good luck with that. A red flag is a red flag.
I appreciate that he is willing to learn and grow. We all make mistakes. If you understand why it’s offensive and keep doing it, yeah red flag.
I think the ability to change with new information is admirable.
It is admirable and increasingly rare.
I’m sure this person really appreciates this warning about a person that they know and you don’t
It’s similar to how I appreciate your reply.
I think it depends on how often they’re coming up with dubious takes, and how often there are repeats.
Like if you have to explain that gay people are just trying to live life, and that’s fixing misinformation they got as a youth, fine. Good, even. But if you have that talk and then have to have to again a month later because they “forgot” or picked up more bad ideas? Concerning.
Friend of a friend was always getting talks to patch up his dicey world view, but then he’d go back to the same YouTube or shitty friends and come back two weeks later with a fresh batch of bad ideas. Really have to get to the root of the problem
i think if your husband has weird ideas about women you’re supposed to argue with him or something
Ideally, you have these “arguments” well ahead of time before you marry someone who has fucked up attitudes about anyone, anywhere.
People can absolutely change and “wake up” to realize that the shit they’re holding onto is going to cost them their future and they will absolutely change for the better when they care for someone else and want a better future. But not everyone is willing or capable of self-examination, and many are also not willing or capable of making changes.
Find out before you both have your names on a mortgage or carton of eggs together.
I have for almost my entire life been entirely too accommodating of other people. My husband has some issues, but a lot of them are small, lack malice or unintentional. Such is human interaction. He is a self declared feminist, however its taken a few years of us being together before he started doing half the cleaning and things like his own laundry. We both work full time. Such is society.
He smokes 🌳 daily, i smoke 🚬 infrequently. He hates that I do, says he wants a divorce if he catches me and is quite controlling about it tbh. So I’ve always hidden it from him, I usually smoke 10 a week when I’m smoking and when I dont smoke I go 3-24 months without one. Last night I realized I’m a grown ass woman being treated like a child and I’m enabling the behavior. So I told him I was going outside to smoke. He kicked up his normal fuss, but this morning he initiated a conversation about it calmly and we spoke about it like adults.In the same way that the patriarchy harms both men and women, misogyny is upheld by both men and women. Not to equal levels of course on either count, but im so proud of all the people, men and women, who can call this shit out. It took me entirely too long in this example.
(Also lol at the carton of eggs joke)
You leave them.
When I date people, I don’t allow myself to go forward without completing a mutual background check. I ask questions and talk about politics, tell about situations I’ve encountered and listen attentively.
I want to know about the other person’s world views, decision-making and problem-solving methods - and to inform them about my own. I want to know how they tell apart truth from a lie, what they think about state and centralization, wealth and poverty, science and religion, civil rights and minorities - and to inform them about what I think, so they could make informed decisions.
Ironically, I don’t wish to know what party they vote for - because the selection is shitty and I laugh about my own past choices. :)
Recalling situations where world views mismatched - I’ve had to part ways with one person because she was too spiritual. Two people subscribed to odd conspiracy theories. One person’s goals in life warned me about excessive self-interest and lack of care about others.
P.S.
Trying to switch perspective and step into the shoes of a woman, I think it can be a warning sign if the other person gives excessive gifts or feels “obligated to take care” - one should inquire about the reason. I would also be wary of people who eagerly accept me as the new centerpoint of their life - it might indicate an obsessive tendency and severe symptoms if the relation should break. If the other person exhibited jealousy about friends or controlling behaviour, that would be a definite warning sign to me.
P.P.S.
As for social media, yes, it can corrupt people’s perception of reality. How to pull them out of the bog, no idea. As for how to avoid them getting there: no algorithmically steered social media.
I think it’s a good strategy but it’s not fool proof. They’ll tell you what you want to hear and then slowly start pushing your boundaries. Or they’ll pretend to be one way only to get what they want out of you.
Sure, but I don’t think it’s meant to be foolproof, it sounds like a great way to start
gives excessive gifts
Huge red flag. Becomes a tool of control (I was married into a wealthy family.)
The big thing is that they can change their personality after marriage - once you are trapped. There were red flags there, which I shouldn’t have ignored, but it was like night and day.
Mine started getting interested in stuff like religion - noticed that his pastor friend got to play WoW all day while the wife basically did everything.
How to pull them out of the bog, no idea.
For my part I’ve just confessed my ignorance of what’s going on on the commercial web, and shared with them the kinds of conversations I’m have on the non-commercial parts (fedi, email, chats, smol web, etc), which are usually nicer and more productive.
Although to certain extent I still consider this here a form a social media… and I’m not actually sure that it’s good for us past a certain number of people. It might be “more cacophony than community” to quote one of Matthew Graybosch’s blog posts.
It is better here than on the mainstream social medias, though. That’s for sure for sure.
EDIT anyway, that’s a total aside. I just couldn’t help picking up that one thread. Good comment. I love your approach.
Its the Boisphere. No men are involved.
Toxic masculinity, feeding itself, empowered by the forces of capital who desires culture war above class war.
I love just saying “toxic masculinity” anywhere online, even if you’re deep in the bowels of Lemmy, you will get a few reactionary turds who just see the term and lose all cognitive ability to think and mash the downvote button between heated breaths and tears streaming down their faces.
edit: and it continues, very predictable. Seriously guys, just be honest if the term makes you feel shit, you will find truth by pursuing those feelings and the questions around them, literally you will figure out why you’re actually unhappy. Don’t pull back, push through. Yes, I am provoking, and if it’s provocation that has an effect on you, that’s a HUGE sign that you can figure out a big truth about yourself and the world if you spend like, 30 minutes in uncomfortable silence asking yourself “why” about things and being painfully honest in your replies until you hit bedrock.
^ This reply shows me you don’t understand what men like Andrew Tate are selling. He’s selling validation to these boys and men, and you’re providing a perfect marketplace for that product to sell like hot cakes.
When you reply like that to these people, the mental picture of grown men having hissy fits and “mashing downvote buttons with tears in their eyes” might feel good in the moment, but those men and boys aren’t actually reacting like that. Instead, the message they get is they were right the whole time, that people like you really do just hate men and masculinity, and that people like Andrew Tate are the ones “on their side”.
I get that it feels good to trigger people you don’t like, but all you’re doing is making Andrew Tate’s job easier. Don’t you think he’s already making enough money as it is?
Well said. Looking down on impressionable men with this sort of smug contempt is how we go further down the path.
If they need validation from the likes of grifters and scumbags like Andrew Tate then they are already too far gone.
He’s a fucking tool, and I have no idea why he appeals to young men. There’s so many other, manlier, kinder folks out there who can provide that same validation.
God damit this sentence makes me want to blow my brains out. It’s too fucking thick in bullshit. You ever notice how the right will just call someone a pedo or gang member and that really works. It’s not like they go " he’s just socioeconomic poverty based victim of modern prison system" like just get to that point. Andrew is a grown man who targets children.
That’s… Their point? Either you misread what they said or you wrote your response wrong.
Isn’t tate already old news for the manosphere?
In the old days when you disappeared into a cult, you physically went to live with them and everything.
These days it’s “cult to go.” Good luck intervening and cutting off their link to the cult when the cult is speaking to them from their pocket.
I miss those days, they’d go be weird on their own and not drag the rest of us into this crap
Get a new partner… they’re gone
