With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.
“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”
You leave them.
To answer the headline: divorce, I hope.
Divorce is in many case the trigger. The MGTOW-community was/is a lot of divorced men who feel mistreated by society, and blame women for it.
I remember being excited and thinking maybe I had found my people when I first heard about MGTOW thinking it would be dudes who realized maybe dating wasn’t for them and instead were just focusing on improving themselves. Then I looked at their subreddit and no, just a shitton of misogyny.
Yeah, on paper I’m a mgtow. After about 2 seconds I was like “wait, these people are losers.” Turns out I’m a relationship anarchist.
There’s an old adage that you should never make life policy decisions based on how you feel in the moment. The MGTOW guys, even the “best” of them are stuck in a perpetual reaction state and thus their policy and mission statement are less actual tactics for finding comfort and peace, and more a reaction designed to elicit a response from other people.
It’s a tantrum. They’re all throwing a tantrum.
If you’re actually making your own decisions about if you want to date or not, you just do it, you don’t need to wear it like a uniform, you don’t actually need community support outside of whatever actual social circle you [should] already have in life. The MGTOW movement, even in the most charitable possible light, is massively performative and expecting some kind of attention. This is why they get increasingly vocal and toxic, they’re like the 11-year-old kid who packed all his favorite belongings in a checkerboard bindle over his shoulder and is at the front door shouting “I’M REALLY RUNNING AWAY NOW! FOR REAL! YOU’RE ALL GONNA BE SORRY!”
you don’t actually need community support outside of whatever actual social circle you [should] already have in life.
For me the interest was in having a group to talk with that was of the same mindset and knowing I wouldn’t have to deal with people complaining about their relationship issues or changing plans because of spouse/kids. Which is not something I have in life. I have individuals who I can talk with like that but if we get more than 3-4 of us together someone’s going to start bitching about relationship stuff.
Yeah though the vibe of that community was exactly as you described and not what I was looking for at all.
Self improvement is a trap and misogyny is the scapegoat. “I have a nice car/house/job/makes lots of money now but still women won’t fuck me, they must be evil!”. It’s always all about becoming some übermensh but never about finding a social context, which is what these men actually need.
That’s the worst part of MGTOW. It’s a nice premise, and then they just dumped toxic waste on it.
IMO this is basically how society works. As soon as you rally more than a few people together under any singular form of identity (brand, activity, social movement), it turns toxic. So, by the time the label carries any meaning (e.g. MGTOW or even something like Feminist) the “voice” of the group becomes abrasive very quickly, and the internal ranks are filled with crazies that have so little meaning in their life that they actually enjoy forming their whole identity around a specific subject.
So you like cars and go to a car meet. You’ll meet a few cool folks. But the people there are just from the general population, with only one thing in common. If you find that you typically only really like 1/50 people you meet, you’re not going to find a higher ratio just because everyone likes cars, unless you literally value cars over all the other sociocultural aspects of your life. As a group, they’ll push ideals and causes that go overboard to support the thing they like. Maybe anti-biker or anti-evironmentalist sentiments, want more roads instead of better mass transit, etc… all sorts of things the average person who just “likes cars” may not be comfortable getting behind.
People are a problem.
And the more people the more problem.
Tbf I suspect a lot of this developed from people moving from a “we” mindset during WW2 to the “me” mindset that came out of Reaganomics.
When humanity can no longer look at our neighbour and simply respect them - no matter their skin colour, religion or political viewpoint - that’s when the shit hits the fan.
And politicians have seen fit to feed this sickness rather than work towards unity … because peace doesn’t pay (or play) as well as divisiveness.
Yes. It is worth trying to address issues first, especially with kids/finances involved, but if nothing works divorce still does.
I would no longer recommend marriage tbh
When economic independence is rare, divorce is rare.
I guess getting rid of no fault divorces helps that too
Seriously I’ve already had this conversation with my husband. If no-fault divorce seems imminent we are divorcing preemptively.
It’s surprising to me that married people are falling for this shit. I thought it was just incels desperate for anything that might give them a chance or an excuse.
it isn’t about being single, its about the modern hell world instilling extreme helplessness in vulnerable people, and they seek any answers whatsoever. the manosphere happily provides ‘answers’ in exchange for money
It has also seeped into every aspect of male culture. You want to watch a YouTube show about cars? Sure. The first couple episodes are normal and then they start sliding in dumb shit.
You listen to a podcast about working out? Same thing goes. It’s little stuff here and there. Sometimes it starts as a reoccurring joke, but it keeps happening until they actually believe.
I also find there are a lot of young people who aren’t comfortable on computers and basically believe whatever they see on the internet, much like an older generation.
There are people at my work place that I thought that I got along with and then all of a sudden they come out with the most bigoted things that I have ever heard. I straight up do not trust any man my age at this point there are just too many of them that are “hiding their powerlevel”
Yeah, I was enjoying some videos about dumb Steven Seagal movies, but then I realized that every single one would have jokes about women being bad drivers, being overly emotional, etc. At first I took it as a humorous way to look at Seagal’s misogyny, but then it became apparent that it was being applied in other cases where it didn’t make sense. It was subtle, in the context of the rest of the videos, but a definitely present part was the manosphere mentality.
I opened a new YouTube account and watched some videogame videos. Rust if you’re curious. I’m a woman and this game is played by mostly men. At some point my husband was struggling with his mental health, we were in gridlock so I tried to look up male perspective mental health videos to see if i could understand him better or reach him in a new way.
Those two searches alone, unlocked a flood of bullshit into my feed. I couldnt believe the garbage I was bombarded with.
It is akin to how women are pummeled with beauty ads and standards (buy this to be pretty!) since we are young.
They figured out how to market this same insecurity to men. Wild stuff
Edit: except they aren’t just selling “self care” like they do to us, they’re selling hate-
There are actors building influence who benefit by more males being this way. They target ladies too, but in different ways. They are determined and focused.
there was plenty of warning signs for Years, even before the pandemic. if you look at how pickup artist operate, and then go on youtube. Tate isnt even a new phenemon, hes a culmination of the above problems. hes just the latest symptom, as was JOE ROGAN.
Agreed.
It’s clear though what kind of males fall for these influencers; the ones without good male role models or father figures in their lives.
Why don’t they have good male role models or father figures? I think it’s because they feel they can only choose between ‘cuck’ and ‘chad’ so when their insecurity flares up, they instinctively go with ‘chad.’
Balance is lost among men in our society. There’s no ‘firmness’ anymore. Either men are pensive emo teens, or they’re boisterous blowhards like tate.
Anyone in between is ignored and forgotten about.
Im in a bubble where these guys are like the most laughable parody of themselves so maybe I’m biased but… I mean nobody is taking this kind of stuff serious right? I mean cool, free speech and such but dumb behavior had consequences, right?
It’s probably 50/50.
50% of the people are using it as entertainment and laughing at/encouraging those who take it seriously. We can call them the ‘trolls.’
50% of the people are actually taking it seriously and don’t know any better. We can call them the ‘tools.’
They definitely are, more and more, it’s the same as every popular movement. They pad the propaganda with legitimately good advice and some controversial but easily supportable facts. That makes the more controversial items easier to swallow.
People absolutely take this stuff seriously. The problem is the most bone headed guys are the ones likely to fall for this stuff. Once they’re sucked in it’s hard to convince them otherwise.
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Yeah, I’m studying to be a teacher and have had several internships during my education.
Young teen boys, 12-15, are into it. They aren’t a majority, but they exist. One of the students came to me and asked if I knew what the matrix was. He was really into redpill shit! Had many conversations with him and hope he hasn’t gone deeper.
Does that make the Wachowskis some kind of prophets to them?
The redpill shit can look really innocent at first. They start off with a lot of talk about self improvement, and that’s great and all. It’s just not too many steps away from the gaslight your bitch stuff.
Taking the red pill means different things to different people.
I hope one day we can have psychologists seriously study and analyze the meaning behind such an idea and how it can be such a powerful tool.
You caught on early, and rejected it. There are plenty of new recruits introduced every day, who are taking it seriously.
Isn’t tate already old news for the manosphere?
Its the Boisphere. No men are involved.
i think if your husband has weird ideas about women you’re supposed to argue with him or something
Ideally, you have these “arguments” well ahead of time before you marry someone who has fucked up attitudes about anyone, anywhere.
People can absolutely change and “wake up” to realize that the shit they’re holding onto is going to cost them their future and they will absolutely change for the better when they care for someone else and want a better future. But not everyone is willing or capable of self-examination, and many are also not willing or capable of making changes.
Find out before you both have your names on a mortgage or carton of eggs together.
I have for almost my entire life been entirely too accommodating of other people. My husband has some issues, but a lot of them are small, lack malice or unintentional. Such is human interaction. He is a self declared feminist, however its taken a few years of us being together before he started doing half the cleaning and things like his own laundry. We both work full time. Such is society.
He smokes 🌳 daily, i smoke 🚬 infrequently. He hates that I do, says he wants a divorce if he catches me and is quite controlling about it tbh. So I’ve always hidden it from him, I usually smoke 10 a week when I’m smoking and when I dont smoke I go 3-24 months without one. Last night I realized I’m a grown ass woman being treated like a child and I’m enabling the behavior. So I told him I was going outside to smoke. He kicked up his normal fuss, but this morning he initiated a conversation about it calmly and we spoke about it like adults.In the same way that the patriarchy harms both men and women, misogyny is upheld by both men and women. Not to equal levels of course on either count, but im so proud of all the people, men and women, who can call this shit out. It took me entirely too long in this example.
(Also lol at the carton of eggs joke)
Spoilers: there were signs
Yeah, they just didn’t pay attention to their partner. Which, not making excuses, is a good part of how they slip there.
Sometimes it’s easier to stay with the devil you know than chance the devil you don’t.
You don’t need to stay with a devil at all.
Some women are apparently terrified of being single. I’ve known some who have never been single for more than a few days since they turned 15 or something. I know it can sometimes be more complicated than that, but it’s a contributing factor.
I would argue that being single equates to being alone … and women who are alone are vulnerable as hell.
So (at least sometimes) the devil you know is safer than the devil you don’t.
I’d argue that women who are in abusive relationships or relationships with potential manosphere abusers are less safe than if they were single.
Yeah I don’t really understand this claim.
My partner and I disagree on a lot of things, but I can predict with near certainty where she stands on things because she my partner, we have shared a life together, and I know her.
You want a trad wife? Get your sorry ass to work buying her cars, clothes, houses, furnishings so she can focus on making your home. Kids in private school, high class vacations, all of it.
Provider is a title that is earned and I doubt even a thousandth of these blowholes are up to the task of being a trad husband.
Kids in private school, high class vacations, all of it.
The fuck is traditional about any of that?
Are you one of those people who sees a movie about rich people in the past and assume that’s how you would’ve lived?
I’m not sure ML is the right place for you hehe
A lifetime of experience has taught me the fastest way to poke through someone’s hubris is to take their bullshit deadly seriously.
Not in that economy, no. That you can’t afford a family with a single income anymore is one of the forces that lead to changing role models. Not that i think it’s a bad thing.
Thank you, I’d rather be a trophy husband than support a tradwife
As long as it’s mutually wanted. One of the women interviewed for the article started building her career later in the marriage, and cites her husband’s anger at her increasing independence as a major factor in their divorce.
One of my (social work) profs advised us this could happen. And then it did to me.
Ah, see, i knew there was a trad wife catch.
Private schools. shudders
The private school is the living room.
12% of young women support Tate? That’s way higher than what I expected :( I can’t understand why would any woman support someone who makes a fortune out of exploiting and abusing women openly
Almost every survey will get 6-10% of people answering yes to the most extreme or batshit crazy option, no matter what.
Probably the main reason is that people are pissed off that they are being approached by survey takers and punish the survey for revenge.
And there are some batshit crazy people out there.
The Lizardman Constant.
And then there are elections.
Same mindset.
Tradwife content is on the rise for women as well, more and more young people are buying into this mythical simpler past as the world gets more complex, alienating and difficult.
Sorry if a dumb question but what is a “tradwife”? (Not a native speaker)
It is a shortening of “Traditional wife” as in a wife who complies with the old male/female value system. IE the man works and provides for and protects the family while the woman stays at home, cooks, cleans the house, watches the kids, does not talk back to her man because he is the head of the family and runs shit. Her job basically is to make life easier for him and raise his kids.
I can understand that but how come being a webcam girl and endure physical and psychological abuse fit in the “tradwife” narrative? It’s particularly support for Tate what I can’t understand
I think this is ambigous. When people are asked “do you support the views of Andrew Tate?” How many actually know these in particular? What if individual views are asked and then if more than 50% are answered with “support” it is considered to support his views overall?
I’ve read enough news to know that Tate is a terrible person and probably a serious criminal. But i would not be able to describe his views, nor do i want to find out what his views are exactly.
Here are three of the research pieces the article uses …
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2024/07/24/plugged-in-tate-misogyny-2/
https://hopenothate.org.uk/2024/07/24/plugged-in-tate-religion/
I looked at the one for mysoginy
One in four of the young people who have heard of Tate have a favourable opinion of him, but there is a clear gender divide: only 12% of female respondents have a positive view, compared to 41% of young men.
We asked young people what they liked about Tate. The top three reasons overall are: “He’s not afraid to push back against ‘woke’ ideology” (24%), “He wants men to be real men” (22%) and “He tells it how it is” (20%). Although it is commonly thought that Tate’s opulent lifestyle, cars and fitness are an entrypoint through which young people become interested in his content, admiration for lifestyle (14%) and humour (11%) do not rank as highly. This suggests that the main pull of Andrew Tate for young people is his hateful activism.
That said, younger Tate supporters aged 16-17 and female respondents are more likely to admire his lifestyle, at 20% and 18% respectively. Putting Tate’s motivational and fitness content within a wider context of his divisiveness and hatefulness, as well as signposting other figures who produce similar lifestyle content without the underlying misogyny, could be an important step in combating his influence on younger, female audiences.
I think the source provides a nuanced picture and offer suggestions how to combat his influence that got lost in the short notion in the guardian article.
The raw numbers maybe obscure this but aren’t the popularity levels are really about how far along the radicalisation they are?
People start watching for the lifestyle and fitness then end up believing the other stuff and watching for that. I guess women stall out more because who could believe that kind of stuff about themselves?
Tate’s motivational and fitness content
Speaking of, let me present to you the anti-Tate
All I know about Tate’s views are that he’s a male supremacist of some sort.
And rapist, human trafficker, scammer, etc etc etc.
Scumbucket for short.
Fair enough, so there is a possibility that this article (or the surveys it’s based on) are being somewhat misleading. I hope you are right
mythical simple past but they wouldn’t put down the fucking phone. anything but the phone!!
(regardless of gender)
I’m reminded of the inspiration behind the Rust programming language.
“Rust is very much a language inspired from the past to save the future from itself.”
Sorry, rampant consumerism has been detrimental to our species as a whole. Now no matter how much we have, it’s never enough.
I’m glad people are fighting back against this ‘new normal’ that really only exists to funnel as much money as possible to the people at the top.
Also, if you leave Western nations you’ll see that this “mythical simpler past” is still alive and well. The rest of the world is looking at the West like we’re crazy, and most of us are. It’s called hysteria.
I once sat next to a couple on the plane and the young woman was showing her bf a video of Tate talking about how men should be stoic and never complain because no one wants to hear that pussy bullshit. She was saying things to him like “You know how you freak out and bitch at me? You should be like him.”
So yeah… there are women out there who like him. They like hardcore traditional gender roles, is probably the base of it, and want a man doing cliche man shit like Tate preaches. Some women are dealt a great hand by traditional standards: big tits, blond hair, nice face, and they would rather settle into being provided for than fuss with all that feminism stuff. It’s idiotic but people believe whatever’s in their interests. And surprise surprise, these women don’t want men to have emotional needs.
You must be new to the world, then.
Getting everyone to agree on anything is nigh-impossible.
These would be the “pick me’s” whether they realize it or not
Women who are raised by misogynists but can’t see past it. Women who have insecurities and can’t see past it. They are latching on to the same order for security cuz it’s all they know. Just a guess
“Do you regularly watch videos by Jordan Peterson?” kinda needs to become one of those before-first-date screening questions.
You needs to screen your partners SoMe algorithm
either that or: ben shapiro, or joe roegan videos.
Does UFC count as watching Joe Rogan videos even if his commentary annoys the shit out of you and you wish he had no part in it? Because he already pisses me off this would be the last straw.
I groan every time they announce he’s on the commentary team. It’s clear he doesn’t actively watch the sport anymore, and he simply can’t avoid hyperbole.
Seriously, I have learned to ignore him so well that last time he was not on the team it took me half the fight to realize "Where is that annoying fucking Rogan has he really not said shit this whole fii… oooohhh sweet. lol
Weirdly, I know of more women who listen to joe rogan than men (okay, the numbers are 2 to 0, so not that mindblowing). I don’t fucking get it.
It was the same thing with friends who liked Elon Musk before he went fully mask off after buying Twitter. Who he was, and the function he provided, was so completely obvious to anyone who was paying attention. I don’t get how anyone could miss it.
People missed it because they chose to “not pay attention to politics”, leading to right wing indoctrination.
Turns out everything is political.
What if the answer is yes, but I’m laughing at him the whole time?
Editing this dumb two day old throwaway comment to point out if you want to actually overcome the rhetoric you disagree with, then you need to pay enough attention to it to actually interact with people who take it seriously, because apparently I’m still getting replies.
That’s also bad. You regularly hate-watch him? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?
It should only take you about 15 minutes of watching him to understand his gimmick. He used undefined and undefinable terms like “cultural marxism”. He cherry picks out of context sciencey stuff to back up his point of view. He acts super serial all the time to make people think he’s a serious person. That’s it. You don’t need to watch any more.
Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?
As opposed to replying a two day old throwaway comment?
What’s about him is in the least bit funny or entertaining?
Still shows that you’ve got a whole lot of time to waste and that you might be susceptible to eventually fall down the rabbit hole
I think you have right attitude. No one is immune to propaganda, and you really need to be careful in choosing what you consume.
I’ve been deep diving into right wing propaganda for a decade and still not an incel. Still laughing at the fools and their weak beta energy.
Being able to speak their language is far more impactful. Not for the right wing tool spreading propaganda but rather for the lurker who has doubts.
Ah yes, ridicule famously being a small step from endorsement.
You can ridicule it all you want, if you keep watching it you’re one message you agree with away from starting to consider that “hey, maybe what he’s saying isn’t all wrong” and then down the spiral you go.
There’s tons of people who were on the left that lived an event that traumatized them and they then turned to the right.
I think the main problem is “regularly watch”
Views = money/support for them. Doesn’t matter if you’re laughing or not.
Very direct. They could lie about it. Better to ask conceptually I think.
Ask about Lex Fridman: at least for tech geeks it is the antichamber to Joe Rogan and the pandemonium thereafter.
Ok. Tell me about Lex Fridman. I’ve never read that name before.
I believe him to be of Russian descent, and playing hard on the American stereotype of that.
He has had a troubled academic career due to a faulty paper trying to prove Tesla’s Autopilot to make people more attentive.
He has a long standing podcast in which he interviews mostly techbros and politicians such as Musk, Carmack, Trump, Modi and the like for hours at a time. He never really challenges them and lets them speak on whatever they bring up, turning his podcasts into hours-long PR stunts.
Probably a Russian asset, given that in this comment to his conversation with Zelensky he reiterated Trump/Vance talking points.
I have noticed that people who later reveal themselves to be into Joe Rogan and the like first test the waters by asking you if you listened to the latest Fridman podcast. I work in a tech consultancy so I have quite a sample, but it could also be a bubble.
Andrew Rousso made a spot on imitation of the guy here, as usual. It’s worth listening to a Lex Fridman podcast intro just to enjoy Rousso’s imitation.
Hol’up is Carmack a manosphere weirdo?
I’d also like to know. Carmack, unlike most tech bros, is actually intelligent. I wouldn’t have taken him to be a Nazi, especially since one of the games that made him rich was about killing Nazis.
“What can you tell me about jungian archetypes?”
In the old days when you disappeared into a cult, you physically went to live with them and everything.
These days it’s “cult to go.” Good luck intervening and cutting off their link to the cult when the cult is speaking to them from their pocket.
I miss those days, they’d go be weird on their own and not drag the rest of us into this crap
Get a new partner… they’re gone
The culture war swung too far in a certain direction between 2012-2023 and this is the inevitable result. I saw this coming from a mile away.
Can you give some examples? Do you mean the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage in 2015? The #metoo movement in 2017? Black Lives Matter protests in 2020?
What do you think has gone too far?
I agree with him, but I also respect his decision not to answer.
Unfortunately, people like you can’t stand when someone says something you don’t like so you constantly try to pull them into a debate.
Not everyone is worth replying to, regardless of how much they beg for a response.
