So too when you get older. Around 35, life starts hurting for seeming no reason.
Well yes. Any responsibility will take priority over other things.
So close. What traps us in the system is locked real estate. We are not owners of the land anymore, means we cant grow our own crops, build our own houses from our own resources. This means we are locked in a market that can abuse us.
Getting and raising children always was a village effort. But the village long gone and replaced by this corrupt system where we prefer to diabolize children over rioting.
Ain’t nobody diabolizing children. We’re railing against the system that demands everyone make more wage slaves to feed it.
Counter offer, multigenerational homes. Let the kids stay at home for their entire lives if they want to. They can start paying a bit towards the bills once they are adults.
Oh yeah and a house with more than 2 adults working, especially once the mortgage is paid off? You could work 1 day a week each and have plenty of money.
I suppose as your kids get partners if half move out and half move in its sustainable there too. Keep at it and build up some intergenerational wealth?
Why can’t people see that this community and every post in it is a reaction to a lifetime of being pressured into having kids? I have seen zero posts here and very few comments here which cannot be easily explained by that dynamic.
You don’t have to choose to see any sentiment less than neutral when it comes to kids as hatred toward kids. In fact out of every time a child themselves bothered me, I blamed the parents 99% of the time for standing there and watching their child behave shittily
I can say for certainty that I’m still in the US because of my kids. The cost of emigrating with children is just too much without going full refugee.
That all is alleviated by a decent social support though. I have a kid and after losing a job last year I collected state benefits, he still went to school and nothing changed about insurance. Sure there was less money but still enough.
Idk how to tell you but everyone around me is so poor that if I fall there’s nothing to catch me at all… Hell, there’s borrowed money I fully expect to never get back too… I’m sure I’m not the only one in this situation
Some of it is alleviated. A social support net will arrest your fall if something unfortunate happens (like losing a job), but you still can’t just walk away from it all if you so choose.
What? Why?
There are millions and millions of people walking away from their families, dependants, circumstances is life, ever day.
It’s hard, all right, but just like with anything you will care about.
There’s a specific class of people that walk away from their children – those people are called deadbeats.
So… Being called names is the biggest problem? You’re walking away - so walk on.
Ummm no? Doesnt the government of most countries come after a person if that person accidentally produces a child and then doesnt oay child support? Thats what Ive seen before but maybe Im wrong…
ALSO the right to give a child up to adoption is questionable in most countries too.
Its not the name calling its just that legally speaking the government and their bribed mercenary piggies will go out of their way to hunt you, tax you, and kill you if do choose to become a deadbeat.
Most people would feel bad causing their family to fall apart and inflicting trauma on their children, I think that is more motivating than name calling.
That’s not what the post is about though.
It was about how having kids “traps you in the system”. You need to work and so on so you can take care of your kids. Sure you can just abandon them, but most people don’t want to make their kids suffer and feel obligation to raise them either morally or legally. Therefore they are stuck doing a job and having a life they wouldn’t necessarily want if they hadn’t had kids. They’re not literally “trapped” like someone isn’t literally stuck in prison, they can escape if they are creative or lucky enough.
Doesnt the government of most countries come after a person if that person accidentally produces a child and then doesnt oay child support? Thats what Ive seen before but maybe Im wrong…
ALSO the right to give a child up to adoption is questionable in most countries too.
Well, yeah. If there’s an entire section for it at Walmart, it’s not about you.
Speak for yourself. I’m a vacuum cleaner.
I’m sure you make your partner very happy when you suck blow and get thrown in the closet 😉
Its an old yo mama joke.
Contraceptive section? 😆
I’ll be honest. Never been to a Walmart.
But surely there isn’t a section for that. Surely it’s in the “Health” section, not with it own sign dangling from the roof.
“Excuse me? Can you point me to the Don’t Fuck Up While Horny section?”
“Sure. See the signs? 40 aisles that way, after Humming Fish Bowls, you can’t miss it. HUGE Condom Man mascot.”
What constitutes a “section”? There are definitely signs in stores that say “family planning” and there’s several items grouped together with guaranteed shelf space. This is true in Walmart and most any other stores that carry products like that.
Nope.
Been to and lived in many countries on this planet.
These things are usually just a few shelves in a general health area. Depending on the country, kind of hdden in a way to not draw attention to the customer wanting to buy magnums or the day after pill.
Ongoing contraception is usually just picked up from the pharmacy or delivered.
Okay you’re just wrong and didn’t even engage with what I said. They label those sections in the US commonly, maybe usually, but I’m not arguing about something this stupid so have fun ✌️
Sorry for not fully engaging about this topic and referring to world experiences instead.
Clearly I’m not taking this seriously enough for you, and I apologise.
Oh, wait. No, you got it in the end. Let’s be friends.
See also: aging parents, marriage, real estate, college education, car payments. Like, this person is hyperfocused on children, but any commitment of any kind comes with sacrifices and restriction unless you’re endlessly wealthy.
You can walk away from every single one of those things. Aging parents aren’t your responsibility (if they are, there’s something deeply wrong with how they lived their lives). Marriages can be annulled. You can drop out of college and sell the car. All of those things can be reversed to a reasonable degree.
You can’t walk away from your kids under any circumstances (aside from giving them up for adoption, which still doesn’t exactly sever their connection to you or your responsibility towards them) – they exist entirely and completely because you desired it to be so.
Every state in the US has a safe-haven law on the books. You can drop a baby off at nearly any firestation, sometimes in completely anonymous baby boxes, and absolve yourself of responsibility. It’s literally easier to get rid of a child than it is student loan debt.
Damn. Truth.
Just because it’s technically possible – like, for example, murdering one’s abuser is an option – doesn’t mean it’s something that most parents would be willing to consider. There’s your bond with your child, there’s empathy, there’s guilt, there’s family and friends judging you, and potentially cutting you off if you decide to do it, … I’m sure there’s places in the world where it’s worse, or straight up illegal.
Yes, which circles back to my initial point: all the things I listed and more “trap” you in the same way. The emotions and repercussions you describe also apply to plenty of things beyond caring for a child. Parenthood is not the unique trap that OP’s post implies.
OP states the entrapment of “people depending on you” which is uniquely different from the other things you’ve mentioned. With aging parents, it depends on the culture and retirement support given by the state, but then again, they brought you into this world, not the other way around. With a partner, I could see a case being made if said partner is disabled. But with kids, you are (typically) the reason they’re here.
This is like the first 3 days after birth and we are also talking emotional connection that you don’t have to the car.
What is even the point of your comment? Kids make life much more difficult is not a hot take at all.
…but thats states in the usa …
WHAT ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES?! What about certain municipalities in other countries thst have completely dofferent laws?!
Remember, this is the internet. The US is the only country. /s
Aging parents aren’t your responsibility (if they are, there’s something deeply wrong with how they lived their lives).
I don’t agree with this at all. People have problems and need help all the time without it being all their fault. If they didn’t, there would be almost no homeless people, maybe zero.
That’s not even remotely what I said. I said they’re not your responsibility and you can indeed walk away from them should you choose to because you had no hand in their existence. You can choose to help them or care for them but that is 100% a conscious choice on your end, you are under zero actual obligation to do so.
Yes, thank you!
There’s a definite overlap in this community of people that don’t want kids and people that were traumatized by their parents. I totally get that. It seems like some of them also get so fixated on “parent bad” that they paint everyone with the same experience they’ve had.
This world view is very self-centered, and also inconsistent.
Inconsistent: Your argument is essentially, “you can abandon your aging parents, but you can’t abandon a child.” False. If you’re okay with abandoning aging parents, why not leave a child up for adoption? Both are, quite frankly, gross concepts
Self-centered: Humans are social creatures, and part of being social is community. And I mean IRL community. For many that community include immediate and extended family. For others, it’s found family. Either way, yes, a person can “walk away”, and there are consequences. Also, I’m taking care of my mom. She’s 85. If I abandon her, she’ll be put in a home, and all of her things become property of the state. So, to a degree, she is my responsibility, as well as my other siblings. If we abandon her, her community will help, but not to the degree that she could maintain her independence and quality of life. And it would break her heart. Is there something wrong with how she lived her life?
I can’t tell if you’re just young, or very socially isolated, or both. Yes children bog a person down, shackle them to a way of life that allows the child to (hopefully) thrive. So do other things. If a person is so isolated they can pull up stakes and go with a snap of their fingers that person is deeply wrong with how their living their life.
Feel like the whole parent thing here you’re giving is also naive, as it’s assuming a decent relationship with the parents.
for others it’s found family
Yes, I assume most people have at least a nominally healthy relationship with their parents. Perhaps that’s naive. I don’t assume everyone does, but even with found family a healthy balance includes older parental/Uncle/Aunt type figures that get older and sometimes need help.
My greater point is that no
manperson is an island. We are (almost) all anchored by various social responsibilities. Those ties that bind also add richness and variety to life…Ummm no. If I were to abuse someone or something , even a pet, why in the fuck would I expect ‘sOcIal RepSonSibIlTiEs’ to keeo them connected to me? Abuse is a choice. By making the choice to abuse someone or soemthing a person has lost all rights to be tied to that thing. Ive burnt The Social Contract and now must fave the consequences. Its not hard to just not be an asshole and to just use a little critical thinking and little empathy.
Abuse and abusers adds no ‘richness’ to life. If anything they destroy life , and those abusers probably spent most of their life doing what IOF soldiers are currently doing in Palestine or what american marines did in Iran and Afghanistan. Do people like this add ‘richness’ to anyone’s life in your opinion? Lool!
Some people are forced to become an island.
I’m sorry, what? When did abuse ever come up? I think you might be way inside your own head there. The entire point of found family is when your birth parents are either dead or abusive and you’ve gone no contact. Where in my reply did I say you have to stay with abusers? What are you even talking about? You’re reading my reply from the perspective of an abusive parent. I’m talking about how decent people always are connected to others. There is some seriously toxic projection going on in this thread
Also, often if someone says another person “probably” does something, without evidence, their argument is invalid. Go touch grass, friend, and think about something positive. You definitely need it
…Lol im toching grass right now and it was wet . Now my socks are wet too
If you’re okay with abandoning aging parents, why not leave a child up for adoption? Both are, quite frankly, gross concepts
Having children is a choice, and you agree to be responsible for them.
Being born is not.Being raped and forced to give birth isn’t a choice.
That’s an edge case (and people manage to “lose” unwanted pregnancies all the time)
Sorry, I haven’t considered such a possibility.
Or a car
Yep. Fuck those too
I know people who pay more for their car subscription than I do for my mortgage.
What is a car subscription?
When people pay every month to own a car.
When people pay every month to
own a carbe an idiot.Her: “Hey bae, naughty idea! lets do it in your ferarri!”
“…uhh…ya … MY ferarri. But we will have to have like dry, no-movement sex . No liquids or scratches can get anywhere on the interior at all or else the monthly cost will go up.” 😋👍🏻
Her: “…monthly cost wot?”
Not even a Ferrari, just some boring half SUV thing with a shitload of dumb accessories. Then in a few years they get another one because they can’t afford to pay it off completely but they can afford to pay every month forever.
This is so true. I was literally just thinking about this in regard to feeling shackled to an unhappy lifestyle because obligations to my children’s lifestyle encroach on my own freedom. I love my kids, but I’d never give anybody a hard time for choosing to not have kids of their own. Having kids is without a doubt a big personal sacrifice with a long commitment.
Same could be said about mortgages and loans. Yeeees, take the loan for the big house. Now you are trapped in the grind-spiral and need to work your ass off
Owning property is not a trap unless the property is worthless.
The person you rent it to is trapped.
You don’t own the property. The bank does.
True, but it’s not a having kids problem. It’s a capitalism problem, as usual.
The same case could be made for hobbies. You need money for hobbies, so they trap you in the system.
Destroy capitalism and suddenly having kids is great (relatively speaking, subject to personal preferences).
I think OOP is referring specifically to the cultural pressures everywhere telling you that you need to have kids. The people pushing that the most are conservatives who are straight up puppets for billionaires
They need more labor and consumers. Every American is more profit for the corporations that rule us.
Also more soldiers to send off on needless wars like the Vietnam War, Korean War, Iran War , Afghan War, etc…
All the wars Injust mentioned didnt substantially change any of the lives of the peoples of the countries that participated in them.
Vietnam is still a somewhat socialistic state, North Korea and South Korea still exist till today, Iran is still ruled miliarily by the IRGC and parliamentarily by the Iranian clerical elites, and the Afghanis still dont care at all about nato and are rulled by the Taliban…
Just more soldiers into thhe needless meat grinders, and more slaves and consumers to do the bidding of the richest people in society.
There will be more and more needless wars with dozens of innocent , impressionable adults thrown into the different meat grinders. There will be mroe and more people turned into personal toys for the rich or into their slaves and consumers …
It is not until the average person gets fed up and knowledgable about how this circular and awful system fucks them , their loved ones, their communities and the kids of their communities over and says "No More! " will we see a substantial change to be subsubstantiated.
The “life script” (to happiness?)
You need money for hobbies
some hobbies. Other hobbies can even make you money.
A hobby that makes money is a job, once you start to depend on it it starts being stressful and stops being a hobby. I’ve been through that cycle a couple of times.
Okok, what i wanted to say; a lot of hobbies are free or next-to-free.
I’ve completed sailing course recently, and I’m still in awe that one of activities that the instructors do in their spare time is handling the private yachts between ports, like bringing one from Greece to Spain. Seems like an awesome side gig.
If you like being beholden to the Epstein class, sure.
Other hobbies can even make you money.
My hobby is data entry in spreadsheets for banks and oil companies.
My condolences.
There’s a reason the right wing is always trying to ban birth control/abortion, push those trashy ‘16 and pregnant’ shows, complain about teen pregnancy rates being down, want to legalize child marriage and child labor. Kids are just one way that capitalism traps you into being dependent on the system and desperate. For those in the US health insurance is another. And over-reliance on cars. They love to put a recurring cost on anything that’s necessary to maintaining your survival/quality of life, because then you’re dependent on perpetuating the system.
The same case could be made for hobbies. You need money for hobbies, so they trap you in the system.
I don’t think this is quite right. If you want to make changes in your life, you’re free to abandon your hobbies in ways that you are not free to abandon your children.
Destroy capitalism and suddenly having kids is great
Depends on the system. The reason why capitalism has proliferated is it allows selfishness, which is part of human nature. Honestly, is there a better economic system, which also rewards selfishness like capitalism?
The main reason why capitalism has proliferated is because capitalists slaughtered everyone who opposed it at first. Millions killed across all of Europe, simply for defending their homes and common land from being taken by the Church and aristocracy.
After resistance was crushed, and people no longer owned anything, they had no choice but to work as slaves for capitalists. Ever since then, they have constantly been pitting us against each other, and we’ve had no choice but to play their game, since otherwise it’s homelessness or death.
People tend to be a whole lot less selfish if they don’t need to struggle for survival, and if they’re not brainwashed into thinking it has to be this way from early childhood.
In every single study and poll, results consistently show that close to nobody supports capitalism, and nearly everyone is perfectly willing to share fairly, so that we can all live well.
Selfishness is not human nature. At least not for the majority of people. Cooperation, sharing, and helping others are. It might not be obvious, because capitalists have been forcefully beating it out of us for the last 500 years.
But it doesn’t matter. Capitalists hold all the power, as they’ve always had, and will sooner die than let any meaningful change take place. Governments would rather order the military to shoot protesters than listen to any anti-capitalist points.
We’re not allowed to question anything about capitalism. It’s the worst, most destructive religion anyone has ever come up with and forced onto others, built on the most asinine dogmas possible.
It’s one form of entrapment but in this economy even being childfree im living paycheck to paycheck
Exactly, and it makes the idea of “having children” sound even more absurd.
I feel as if this further justifies universal access to voluntary birth control, abortions, and sterilizations globally.
Because all because someone and their parrtner(s) have a breeding kink that doesnt mean thatt they have the time, psyche , or money to raise a child. Esoecially in today’s world where living paycheque to paycheque is the default for most people. So that means all humans have gained the right to delay producing children , even forever, cause how do we know if things will improve economically? Things probably wont improve. The majority of humanity has seemed to be OK with this current ‘paycheque-to-paycheque’ status quo for decades…so…
It’s one form of entrapment but
in this economyunder capitalism even being childfree im living paycheck to paycheck.Yeah being a “dink” or even just solo and childless/free used to be a ticket to easy street, now it’s just regular street.
Hey I’m still enjoying solo leveling for the most part.
This is the primary reason why people aren’t having children imo. This and that the system isn’t contributing enough
This is what it means to be responsible. It’s no longer just about you, but something more. Some people find that suffocating. Others find it liberating.
Very true, and in a pretty surprising turn, most folks really only know how they respond once they get there.
But to the point, the biggest cause of variance between the two is just available resources.
Responsibilityspans the dial between powerful lived experience of wholesome capability and crippling mortal burden from which no escape but death is available. I’d say that dial is twisted more by support / resources / precarity than by individual characteristics, certainly more than an individual’s willingness to “rise to the occasion” or similar.
But have you considered generational wealth
