• Shayeta@feddit.org
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    1 day ago

    Maybe we’ve reached a point where human needs can be fully subsidized and people can then focus on what they want to do rather than how to survive.

  • FuyuhikoDate@feddit.org
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    2 days ago

    Artists I know: I dont care people with a make think they can make music for years…

    Mathematicians I asked: and people where anxious about the calculator… Math will never be done and a computer cannot held be accountable for false answers, so we still will be needed.

    Economists I know: who are you and how did you got into my house? I dont want to see that! hey gimme back me phone I am calling the Police!!

    • dropdrip@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      Economists are a religious sect for modern times: divining what will and what won’t happen in a completely arbitrary, selectively enforced system. They’re a class of citizens that attempt to legitimize political want and behaviour.

  • kunaltyagi@programming.dev
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    2 days ago

    Parts of art have long been industrialized. Prefab and flat packed homes and furniture. Minimal decorations.

    Now it’s the turn of digital art. Physical art is still there.

    Most hard sciences had already been industrialized as well. Mathematics is the latest to join. Mathematicians need to reinvent what they do: mountain climbing (proof creation) might be dead but theory crafting and increasing understanding (novel proofs) will never be.

    • Christian@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      Mathematicians need to reinvent what they do: mountain climbing (proof creation) might be dead but theory crafting and increasing understanding (novel proofs) will never be.

      This is a pretty easy mistake to make when you don’t have firsthand experience, but the problem is that’s not a reinvention of what mathematicians do at all, it’s only a reinvention of the presentation. Big mathematical advances are almost invariably driven by curiosity, but the university writing your paycheck wants their name attached to your in publications of breakthrough results. Proofs are just the way a mathematician justifies that they’re working on math. No proofs means a risk admin will triple their teaching load and say “you’re only getting paid to teach now” with lip service about encouraging them to continue math on their own time.

      If you have an oracle that gives a true/false answer to a conjecture, it won’t destroy the curiosity to ask why, or the approach a mathematician would take if he wants to answer that why, but it will absolutely affect his ability to convince the admin that can’t even read the abstract that this pursuit is worth funding. That’s the crisis. Math papers are unreadable without years of study training your brain to think that way. A headline of “AI proves big theorem” is likely to win over a public that’s grown up disliking math because of its use as an educational gatekeeper, even when it’s unrealistic for human mathematicians to verify the AI’s claim. There is a very realistic risk of administrators who can’t define what a toplogy is declaring that mathematicians are obsolete.

      The final answers to whether conjectures are true/false have never been the fruit of mathematics research. Think about Grothendieck’s work towards solving the Weil conjectures - the machinery he developed to solve them is modern algebraic geometry, world-changing stuff that’s become the backbone of cryptography among other things. Learning the conjectures are true is a footnote. If everyone had already known they were true in advance though, no one would have paid him to start working on them in the first place.

      It would be like someone telling you we can finally stop playing your favorite sport now that the games can be simulated, but you try convincing them otherwise when they’ve never understood one rule and never put a game on because they’ll just be confused and bored.

      • kunaltyagi@programming.dev
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        2 days ago

        I pretty much agree with most of your comment. Grothendrieck’s work would be theory crafting and the curiosity point is similar to what I was thinking when writing about novel proofs/increasing understanding

        • Christian@lemmy.ml
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          1 day ago

          Right, but my point is that’s still what mathematicians do. That has never changed. Grothendieck was a great mathematician, but the difference is not that other mathematicians don’t approach problems with sufficient curiosity. I would go as far as to say Grothendieck’s strength was a heavier time commitment very early in his career to just publish less “deep” results, because that time investment allowed him a very deep understanding of the objects he was working with, which is the key to making real insights. Directing mathematicians away from investing time on more boring proofs to only work on fun theory is misguided.

          Saying mathematicians don’t focus enough on curiosity and novel discoveries is completely at odds with all of my experience in math research. That’s the fun part of math! For everyone! It’s throwing aside that the amount of time and effort Grothendieck put into producing “ordinary” results beforehand was completely necessary in developing schemes. Dismissing the kind of results Grothendieck had published earlier on as not theory-crafting destroys theory-crafting, because deep insights don’t pop out of thin air and thinking outside the box, they come from years of familiarity with the objects you’re working with. It’s also throwing aside that he himself saw toposes as much deeper than schemes, but those did not catch on to the same degree, and that most mathematicians who have been in it for a few decades have their own body of work like that that could be easily dismissed from the outside as not “theory crafting” because the audience is niche in the same way it is for toposes. There’s no “need to reinvent” towards “theory crafting”, and saying that there is is misunderstanding the crisis by misunderstanding how math research has worked in reality.

    • SkyeStarfall@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      3 days ago

      As someone within this field, yup, lmfao

      Me and all of my friends within compsci are all “yeah but I love my job” and they all talk about their co-workers who seem to hate programing and problem solving

      And unfortunately it’s really starting to seem like I have to start using LLMs as part of my job to keep up, and it’s so sad

    • Wirlocke@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      3 days ago

      Really shows the difference between the “I like problem solving” crowd and the “I like shiny tech and everyone said this would make money” crowd.

      • aksdb@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        But the shiny tech makes problem solving so much easier … for me. I can now much more easily solve problems on a wider scale. Many problems I solve are sprinkled with side tasks that don’t have directly to do with the problem but are in my way to get to the solution. Those things have cost me a big amount of time in the past and just bothered me (because I needed to deep dive into something that wasn’t what I wanted to work at). Now an agent deals with these pesky things much faster and I just have to clean up, while keeping my focus on the actual thing I wanted to solve.

        • Wirlocke@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          2 days ago

          You and I have a similar workflow. One thing AI solved for me is not having to hunt obscure specific documentation or wade through unhelpful forums. It also helps make a test script for when I want to see if something’s working without another 20 minute sidequest.

          I’m mainly referring to the people who want the AI to do all the work, which has unfortunately become a common expectation lately. Some people want to feel like programmers without ever reading or writing any of the raw code.

          • Mirror Giraffe@piefed.social
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            10 hours ago

            Whenever our legacy react native apps need to bump due to Google SDK increase I let Claude hunt down the correct dependencies and get it to a working state for me to iron out the quirks. Before it took me a week sometimes, now a day.

            Not too mention it’s so extremely boring.

        • Wirlocke@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          3 days ago

          I’d say I actually fall in that camp. Right now I’m trying to set up an open source AI assistant that’s like, a little dumb but can still help me while I’m coding.

          My ideal relationship with AI is this image:

    • brsrklf@jlai.lu
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      3 days ago

      Yeah. Every now and then there’s a misguided artist spewing shit like “engineers” or “programmers” are all out to get them because they love AI so much.

      Fuck that, I do love my job, I hate both AI “art” and “code”, and I know plenty others.

      • Übercomplicated@lemmy.ml
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        2 days ago

        I can confirm. It’s gotten better in the last few decades, but it’s still pretty horrific. Much worse than economics. (Obviously it is still a fascinating field and there is a lot of good, interesting, scientific psychology. It just also very much has its problems)

      • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        3 days ago

        I’d be happy with calling them economic anthropologists, haha. As far as I’m concerned (and I’m sure it’s more complex than this) the ones interested in people are anthropologists and spreadsheet humpers are economists. But I respect them swimming upstream in their field, being surrounded by economy bros has to suck so hard.

        • rbb36@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          The loudest economists use economic theory as a cudgel. You are right to find them infuriating. They assert certainty where economics does not, and cherry pick exceptions to hold up as rules. They are to economics as RFK Jr is to medicine.

          The math of economics is more like the math of epidemiology or fluid dynamics than the math of mechanical linkages. It describes how things tend to interact within a system, but a given element or interaction is unpredictable. Even concrete sections, like price theory, have contradictions like the velvet rope effect. It describes probable outcomes in a chaotic system running on irrational humans.

          Meteorology is still a math-based science that makes useful predictions, even though it cannot say with certainty whether a particular tropical depression will become a hurricane.

    • themoken@startrek.website
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      3 days ago

      Economics is soft science pretending like it is describing fundamental laws of the universe.

      Economists don’t know shit, they are describing how the economy could work in certain conditions in a vacuum and sometimes politicians/business people buy into the fantasy to backup doing whatever they wanted to do in the first place.

      Oh shit, it’s religion again.

      • Thrydwulf@lemmy.today
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        3 days ago

        To play devil’s advocate, sometimes the economists’ “math” forecasts bad news; in which case politicians/business people will plug their ears like with anyone else. It certainly doesn’t help that economists can’t forecast when things go pop.

        To imply anything other than “line-go-up” would imply a bad job on the part of a politician/business person. Which of course, would be ludicrous. 🙃

      • WesternInfidels@feddit.online
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        3 days ago

        It could be (I’m not saying I know this to be true) that the version of “economics” that makes it onto the TV news is the one that capital finds the most useful, not the version that’s the most scholarly or serious. Or interesting.

        • themoken@startrek.website
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          3 days ago

          There is an element of this, because the people using it for policy or writing headlines always disregard a ton of caveats and qualifications in any field (including actual hard science like physics), but most economics texts I’ve read hide a ton of complexity behind “rationality” that doesn’t exist and are implicitly describing the system that we have (capitalism) without acknowledging that we could do it any other way - which frees them from any ethical conflict with capital/exploitation and lets them pretend they are describing a natural system.

          The truth is we are irrational both as individuals and as groups with outside influences, and the economy can function in whatever way we want it to function. In that lens economics quickly turns into psychology, ethics and philosophy. Which, to be clear, would be a useful thing to study in any economic system (all of which have incentives and pitfalls), but it is not nearly as objective or concrete as it currently pretends as it fiddles with interest rates while billionaires run roughshod over our entire society.

        • skulblaka@sh.itjust.works
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          3 days ago

          There’s a famous quote about economics that goes something along the lines of “the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent,” which I think summarizes everything pretty nicely. Humans are chaotic and largely unpredictable creatures, and economics is a science devoted to trying to pull deterministic data out of inherently nondeterministic people. Sometimes they’re even pretty on point about it. But in all cases it is, best case, an educated guess.

          • MinnesotaGoddam@lemmy.world
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            3 days ago

            yeah, i like to shit on macroeconomists because their best model (that is quantifiable) is only like 60% accurate. there’s not a lot of predictive power in it, but the various models they use are accurate enough to illustrate general ideas.

            i also like to shit on microeconomists because they study auctions and that’s about it. also there was that month we all (like, every economist) studied bananas. i swear the entire damn field has ADHD.

            then there’s the austrian school, who are afraid of maths.

            i guess my point is that the field of economics is wide enough to fit at least three asses

    • laz@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 days ago

      Look dude what we say upfront is what we get paid for and it’s not likely you can really research what you wanted how you wanted