The idea that English’s orthography is crazy because it came into written use late doesn’t really hold water. The ancestors of Modern English have all been written down for many centuries, even though post-1066 no-one was using it for a good while at court.
It’s more that English as a whole is split between a Germanic and Romance ancestry, with the orthography of both sources being represented, while standardisation took place right around the time of a huge shift in pronunciation - the great vowel shift - fossilising an orthography that represented a bygone pronunciation.
In fact I think more can be blamed on English writing being standardised early than late, and then not keeping up with changes in pronunciation: the infamous <gh> cluster used to represent a pronounced /x/ sound - compare English night with German Nacht, or knight with Knecht, or freight with Fracht. All these spellings were standardised from a language that pronounced this consonant! If English really standardised late, then the likelihood would be that these words would not have a (written) consonant where the pronunciation doesn’t have one.
It’s more that English as a whole is split between a Germanic and Romance ancestry, with the orthography of both sources being represented
It’s way more than those two…
a huge shift in pronunciation
That has absolutely nothing to do with grammar, just spelling…
Like, you seem to be solely focused on spelling.
And that’s my entire point, you don’t notice the other shit because it’s “normal” to you. That’s why you’d be paid money to “teach” English…
The rules are so convoluted and nonsensical (the adjective order is a great example) that even native speakers are often unaware of the rules, we just follow them without understanding them.
You can’t teach a non native speaker all the rules, it’s too much to remember. They need that whole “immersion” thing everyone says but never understands. They need to figure it out thru trial and error and learn it subconsciously otherwise they’ll always be focused on translating into English and abiding every rule and remembering each exception.
That’s also why you see internet comments of absolutely perfect classroom English, where the writer constantly apologized for their poor English. Textbook can be learned, but authentic English speakers rarely speak/write how we were taught, and that is what wealthy foreigners want their kids to learn, how the language is actually used.
That is nowhere near as big of an issue with any other language.
Because English isn’t consistent or logical. There’s a shit ton of exceptions to every “rule” and users constantly change things.
Getting deeper into how language influences our thoughts, and the rise of English could explain “the Americanization” of the world just because of how disorganized it can be leaving room for cheating and the importance it puts on the individual and capitalism:
Studies in psychology have found that bilingual people respond differently when they complete tasks in different languages. For example, one study randomly assigned bilingual people in India to complete a work task in Hindi or English.[10] Social norms were more effective at motivating people to work longer in Hindi, whereas payment was more effective in English, which is similar to results when people work in their native languages in the United States and India. Another study randomly assigned bilingual managers in Hong Kong to rate the importance of different values in English or Chinese.[11] When surveyed English, managers in Hong Kong rated conformity and tradition as less important and rated achievement and hedonism as more important.
It’s a fascinating topic, but I fully expect it to be one of those things no one’s heard of before, so people with no idea what is going on will reflexively defend English as a language.
Which ironically enough, they likely wouldn’t experience that response if their native language wasn’t English, even if someone was critizing their hypothetical native language.
I’m talking about orthography because the thread is about how language (German originally) is written - i.e. orthography. You didn’t mention anything about grammar until this latest comment; your previous comment mentioned orthography and vocabulary. All I did was continue talking about what I was already talking about.
The rules are so convoluted and nonsensical (the adjective order is a great example)
The adjective order is an old, overblown meme. The meme came with a ready-made exception (“big bad wolf”) which is no less of an exception for the fact that it came with ready-made excuse (“ablaut reduplication”).
Did you notice that “old, overblown meme” violates the order (opinion follows age)? That’s because it’s overblown.
Did you know that other languages have adjective orders of various specificity and rigidity?
Yes, it’s a fascinating topic, and yes, there are many markers of non-native English speaking which are impractical to teach. But it sounds like you’re trying to steer the conversation somewhere I don’t want to go, and I’m not going down there. As soon as you start categorising languages as “real” or “not real” you’re on your own. Your misunderstanding of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, likewise.
Did you notice that “old, overblown meme” violates the order (opinion follows age)? That’s because it’s overblown.
Did I notice how all the nonsensical rules have nonsensical exceptions…
Yes, that’s why I said:
You can’t teach a non native speaker all the rules, it’s too much to remember. They need that whole “immersion” thing everyone says but never understands. They need to figure it out thru trial and error and learn it subconsciously otherwise they’ll always be focused on translating into English and abiding every rule and remembering each exception.
If someone said “the bad big wolf” would you as a native English speaker react?
You would…
You wouldn’t be able to explain why, you wouldn’t understand why thats an exception and couldn’t explain it to someone else, you just know that’s an exception, we all do.
Your subconscious would just flag it as off, because people not confirming means they may be another tribe…
You’re literally proving my point, the only way to learn “big bad wolf” is exposure and letting the subconscious handle that.
But it sounds like you’re trying to steer the conversation somewhere I don’t want to go, and I’m not going down there.
Then just not reply?
It’s literally that easy, buddy, if you can’t manage that I’ll just block you now that way you can always chime in not getting the point and then I won’t “force” you into a conversation trying to help you.
The idea that English’s orthography is crazy because it came into written use late doesn’t really hold water. The ancestors of Modern English have all been written down for many centuries, even though post-1066 no-one was using it for a good while at court.
It’s more that English as a whole is split between a Germanic and Romance ancestry, with the orthography of both sources being represented, while standardisation took place right around the time of a huge shift in pronunciation - the great vowel shift - fossilising an orthography that represented a bygone pronunciation.
In fact I think more can be blamed on English writing being standardised early than late, and then not keeping up with changes in pronunciation: the infamous <gh> cluster used to represent a pronounced /x/ sound - compare English night with German Nacht, or knight with Knecht, or freight with Fracht. All these spellings were standardised from a language that pronounced this consonant! If English really standardised late, then the likelihood would be that these words would not have a (written) consonant where the pronunciation doesn’t have one.
It’s way more than those two…
That has absolutely nothing to do with grammar, just spelling…
Like, you seem to be solely focused on spelling.
And that’s my entire point, you don’t notice the other shit because it’s “normal” to you. That’s why you’d be paid money to “teach” English…
The rules are so convoluted and nonsensical (the adjective order is a great example) that even native speakers are often unaware of the rules, we just follow them without understanding them.
You can’t teach a non native speaker all the rules, it’s too much to remember. They need that whole “immersion” thing everyone says but never understands. They need to figure it out thru trial and error and learn it subconsciously otherwise they’ll always be focused on translating into English and abiding every rule and remembering each exception.
That’s also why you see internet comments of absolutely perfect classroom English, where the writer constantly apologized for their poor English. Textbook can be learned, but authentic English speakers rarely speak/write how we were taught, and that is what wealthy foreigners want their kids to learn, how the language is actually used.
That is nowhere near as big of an issue with any other language.
Because English isn’t consistent or logical. There’s a shit ton of exceptions to every “rule” and users constantly change things.
Getting deeper into how language influences our thoughts, and the rise of English could explain “the Americanization” of the world just because of how disorganized it can be leaving room for cheating and the importance it puts on the individual and capitalism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_thought#Studies_concerning_the_Sapir–Whorf_hypothesis
It’s a fascinating topic, but I fully expect it to be one of those things no one’s heard of before, so people with no idea what is going on will reflexively defend English as a language.
Which ironically enough, they likely wouldn’t experience that response if their native language wasn’t English, even if someone was critizing their hypothetical native language.
I’m talking about orthography because the thread is about how language (German originally) is written - i.e. orthography. You didn’t mention anything about grammar until this latest comment; your previous comment mentioned orthography and vocabulary. All I did was continue talking about what I was already talking about.
The adjective order is an old, overblown meme. The meme came with a ready-made exception (“big bad wolf”) which is no less of an exception for the fact that it came with ready-made excuse (“ablaut reduplication”).
Did you notice that “old, overblown meme” violates the order (opinion follows age)? That’s because it’s overblown.
Did you know that other languages have adjective orders of various specificity and rigidity?
Yes, it’s a fascinating topic, and yes, there are many markers of non-native English speaking which are impractical to teach. But it sounds like you’re trying to steer the conversation somewhere I don’t want to go, and I’m not going down there. As soon as you start categorising languages as “real” or “not real” you’re on your own. Your misunderstanding of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, likewise.
Did I notice how all the nonsensical rules have nonsensical exceptions…
Yes, that’s why I said:
If someone said “the bad big wolf” would you as a native English speaker react?
You would…
You wouldn’t be able to explain why, you wouldn’t understand why thats an exception and couldn’t explain it to someone else, you just know that’s an exception, we all do.
Your subconscious would just flag it as off, because people not confirming means they may be another tribe…
You’re literally proving my point, the only way to learn “big bad wolf” is exposure and letting the subconscious handle that.
Then just not reply?
It’s literally that easy, buddy, if you can’t manage that I’ll just block you now that way you can always chime in not getting the point and then I won’t “force” you into a conversation trying to help you.
What exactly are you trying to “help” me with?
Welp, nothing now.
Best of luck