I think a little clarification is needed. No. I don’t actually think everyone there is insane. I don’t care about the bans so stop trying to use that. HB enthusiasts coming here and trying to call me out achieves nothing besides proving my point
Edit: Feel free to keep trying to brigade me. It’s not going to scare me to take this down
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Thank god for hexbear and lemmygrad though. Imagine the effort needed to block them all individually if spread over all the other instances.
Yeah, it’s actually helpful to have safe spaces for hateful assholes so they can be corralled away.
Its a safe space for them to be… away from me
On the other hand, an isolated community can also become a nasty brewing pot, reinforcing harmful behaviors and even intensifying them over time.
I don’t think calling them safe spaces for hateful assholes is accurate, but I understand frustrations with them.
They still get loose and troll .world while the mods there give them free reign and ban you if you report them for trolling. You can’t call them trolls, but they can call you a troll.
If you think yogthos isn’t the main account of return2ozma you’re gonna have a bad time.
Really? Damn that’s crazy.
fuck that guy.
Before instance blocking was a thing I blocked individual trolls wheb I saw them and after about the fifth block I didn’t see a lot of hexbear, so it they have a few very loud individuals but instance blocking hexbear really made my browsing a lot more chill
lemmygrad? Oh, I missed that one.
Most instances have already blocked lemmygrad. Yours is one of a very few that has not.
“HB enthusiasts coming here and trying to call me out achieves nothing besides proving my point”
Without taking any sides, saying some group is insane and then saying that them lashing back “proves your point” is beyond stupid.
Like, of course they will, what else do you expect them to do? Sit and politely agree?
We should stop with this kind of BS in any sort of debate. Groups will protect themselves, and will not get polite to those who throw slurs at them; that’s natural, normal and speaks nothing about their average behavior.
This never proves any point and is nothing but a dirty rhetorical device aimed to shut your opposition up and make them seem irrelevant. This is not part of any possible healthy conversation.
Also, post is not a genuine question.
Also, post is not a genuine question.
I’ll answer yours in good faith.
what else do you expect them to do? Sit and politely agree?
Internally reach consensus to segregate themselves, then brigade the fediverse whole with content that allowed the majority to believe it was their choice.
Because such actions are well outside of status quo want for bandwagon validation they’re by definition “insane” and “unexpected”. But, the hexbear community is well aware that the majority is better off not yet knowing what they believe. Many expected such actions as it was an obvious moral and ethical imperative that lacked internal leadership support.
Internally reach consensus to segregate themselves, then brigade the fediverse whole with content that allowed the majority to believe it was their choice.
Hexbear was the only lemmy for 4 years, over that time their code base diverged, it took a few months to make federation possible again. There was never a consensus on whether HB should be segregated, a lot of users opposed federation over concerns about harassment or just valuing one of the few leftist communities. The end result was slow federation, with users suggesting specific instances to federate with, and instances getting defederated if the admins failed to take adequate action against transphobes/chasers.
hexbear community is well aware that the majority is better off not yet knowing what they believe
Half this thread is hexbears and others telling people exactly what they believe about random topics. If you doubt that, Hexbear has 4 years of history and a search function. You can even find the struggle sessions where they came to the conclusions I mentioned previously.
Many expected such actions as it was an obvious moral and ethical imperative that lacked internal leadership support.
What are you talking about?
Hexbear was the only lemmy for 4 years, over that time their code base diverged, it took a few months to make federation possible again… a lot of users opposed federation concerns about harassment or just valuing one of the few leftist communities. The end result was slow federation, with users suggesting specific instances to federate with, and instances getting defederated if the admins failed to take adequate action against transphobes/chasers.
Now there’s two of us that are speaking truth.
Half this thread is hexbears and others telling people exactly what they believe about random topics.
Are they? That wouldn’t be thematically consistent with their years of telling others what they’d like to hear for their entertainment. Their culture is selfish in that way.
There was never a consensus on whether HB should be segregated
There was never formal consensus in that leadership repeatedly denied the vote, favoring a granular, instance-by-instance approach.
What are you talking about?
An organized, grassroots movement that employed questionable means to force the wisest decision upon leadership and everyone else.
That wouldn’t be thematically consistent with their years of telling others what they’d like to hear for their entertainment.
What?
There was never formal consensus in that leadership repeatedly denied the vote, favoring a granular, instance-by-instance approach.
Here’s the vote that approved the granular instance-by-instance approach
An organized, grassroots movement that employed questionable means to force the wisest decision upon leadership and everyone else.
Are you describing the consensus building and struggle sessions as “forcing the wisest decision on everyone”?
If someone calls me insane, the response that proves them wrong is a reasonable, chill response at most. The actual sane thing to do is ignore them or make a joke about the claim.
Just like if someone calls me weird, the response that proves I’m not weird is to say, “hahaha, sure, whatever” or “so what?” The response that would prove their point is along the lines of, “I’m not weird, you’re weird” or “they’re not calling me weird, they’re calling my associate weird.”
Ignoring or shrugging off shit people say about you may actually not be a viable long-term strategy.
Contrary to what many of us have been taught, this actually allows others to reinforce their views about you inside their echo chambers.
That’s not to mention it’s simply not great to hear that stuff said about you or the group you care about, and the longer this drags on, the more toxicity, alienation, and spite inevitably accumulates. None of us are immune to this, and it’s not insane to be hostile to those who are hostile to you.
To be clear, this is coming from you getting banned for being a debate-pervert after you claimed Putin invaded Ukraine to “reinstate the USSR” as a secret Commie and refused to take a pro-Palestinian stance, equating Palestinian resistance with a century of settler-colonial genocide.
I think it’s a bit terminally online to run away to a defederated instance to lick your wounds, rather than reflect on why being a debatebro is unhealthy.
Please tell me what a debate bro is for the people who don’t know the terminology
Someone who goes fishing for fights online.
The irony of being banned for being a “debatebro” in fucking hexbear of all places, where “debatebro” is just the zeitgeist.
Call it what it is, he like most others was banned for having differing beliefs than the chosen narrative there.
equivilating
I think the word you’re looking for is “equating.”
“Equivilating” is not a word.
“Equivocating” is, but it means to deceive without lying by creatively telling the truth, to seem you’re saying one thing while really saying something else. This is an art form if you play a lawful good face character and your DM says you aren’t allowed to lie.
This is an art form if you play a lawful good face character and your DM says you aren’t allowed to lie.
This is the real pro tip.
Just woke up, corrected, haha. Thanks!
Everyone knows Putin invaded Ukraine because he’s a dumbass dictator who started to believe his own propaganda. It’s the dictator trap. Putin surrounded himself with backstabbing yes men by literally killing anyone who wasn’t.
As to Palestinian resistance. I don’t think Hamas is a good resistance movement. For a whole host of reasons. Which is why the Israeli government has been propping them up since the 80s.
An unsympathetic resistance movement can do more to damage a cause than not having a movement at all.
From now until the ethnic cleansing is complete, Israel will call any resistance movement Hamas, regardless of their actual name or beliefs. I’m not sure how to fight that… I don’t think anyone really knows beyond screaming the truth everywhere we can.
It didn’t work in the 1920s in Europe. But maybe with the Internet… Likely not though.
Everyone knows Putin invaded Ukraine because he’s a dumbass dictator who started to believe his own propaganda. It’s the dictator trap. Putin surrounded himself with backstabbing yes men by literally killing anyone who wasn’t.
Do you have any evidence of this? Could it be that there were economic factors at play, and rational actors, regardless of morality or immorality? This seems utterly vibe-based and lacks a materialist analysis, so I’d love evidence.
From now until the ethnic cleansing is complete, Israel will call any resistance movement Hamas, regardless of their actual name or beliefs. I’m not sure how to fight that… I don’t think anyone really knows beyond screaming the truth everywhere we can.
Hamas isn’t the only resistance group in Palestine, there are others such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. The key though is that Israel has been committing settler-colonial genocide for a century, oppressed peoples have a right to use violence against their oppressors, especially when non-violent means have tried and failed, and especially in the face of active genocide.
Equating Hamas to Israel equates resistance to genocide with genocide itself.
There was no economic or rational factors. The only thing that makes a lick of sense is the irrational.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-dictator-trap-russia-ukraine/627064/
Those are a warm-up, but then you have the purges since the invasion began.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-purges-in-putins-shrinking-inner-circle
Putin has sort of been the butt of jokes for years for killing anyone who looks at him funny. He’s a KGB stooge, who made his career out of backstabbing and paranoia. His entire inner circle were afraid to tell him the truth, because he would kill them if they did.
He’s never been “savvy”, he’s just been willing to kill as many people as necessary to secure his own power.
The classic authoritarian dictator who throws people out of windows for saying no. And whose vaulted military had body armor made of cardboard, because the corruption was so ingrained that every single level was accepting bribes and stealing shit.
I’m surprised that they’re still going, but Russia has shown the world that they’re a third rate military, at best.
As to Palestine. It doesn’t matter what the resistance movements call themselves now. Israel will just say they’re Hamas, and no one likes Hamas. There are good reasons not to like Hamas, they’re religious extremists who want to kill all Jews.
And for decades, Israel has funded Hamas behind the scenes, while coming down extra heavy on any other resistance movement. And now it’s all paid off for them because they can just claim that anyone they kill was actually Hamas.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
This tactic of creating the perfectly detestable opposition has been used in quite a few places. For example, Greenpeace gets a lot of money from oil company heirs. Specifically the Rockefeller family.
I doubt anyone from Hamas, or Greenpeace, ever took orders from the people giving them money. They were given the money with no strings attached, because they were already jackasses. The money just extended their reach.
There are absolutely rational reasons for Russia to invade Ukraine.
Looking back to the dissolution and subsequent plundering of the USSR, there became a rising Bourgeoisie within the Russian Federation. Since there wasn’t already Imperialist infrastructure for the Russian Federation to exploit the Third World (large, monopoly and financial Capitalists with international footholds), Putin tried to join NATO and join hands with the rest of the Imperialist western nations, and take “their share” of the super-profits. This was denied, and thus began a long few decades of growing tensions between NATO and the Russian Federation.
Ukraine on the other hand has been increasingly militarized, with anti-Russian sentiments rising. NATO increased expansion against Russian requests, leading to Russia trying to forcibly demilitarize Ukraine.
Regardless of morals, there is a material basis for this conflict.
As for Palestine, again, the oppressed have the rights to use violence to free themselves, especially if non-violence hasn’t worked, and in the face of genocide.
Ukraine has been super militarized with anti-Russian sentiments rising since they illegally stole a part of their country in 2014 and started providing money, arms, vehicles, and soldiers to separatists premised on said separatists murdering their fellow citizens and providing a thin pretext for Russia ultimately taking more of Ukraine.
Given the profoundly destructive nature of any such conflict with Russia and the impossibility of winning or even surviving without a coalition of supporters there is zero chance of Ukraine ever starting a conflict with Russia itself.
Given the risk of nuclear war and the impossibility of pushing Ukraine to start such a conflict there was never any chance of NATO either starting such a conflict OR being able to start one by proxy.
It’s hard to argue that Russia had security concerns when the only person in a position to light this candle is themselves.
NATO was virtually entirely a mutual defense pact vs Russia in their previous incarnation as the USSR. Inducting Russia into NATO would only serve to give them veto power and influence on an org which virtually exists to defend against THEM! It makes no coherent sense nor would it somehow provide the Russians some share of “super profits” it would solely give them an opportunity to undermine NATO which is why Putin wanted it.
The material basis for stealing the Ukrainians country from them and murdering its children is that by doing so they gain access to tax payers, resources, people, strategic resources, land, fossil fuels etc. Based on what we know about their strategic planning we have every reason to believe they thought this would be an inexpensive and quick affair that would be concluded in a matter of days with minimal loss of life.
It is purely a function of avarice, stupidity, and immorality. It is no more complicated than asking why a burglar invaded a home and took the lives of people there when he just ended up leaving bloody himself. They did it because they thought it would profit them and because they thought they could get away with it.
NATO was virtually entirely a mutual defense pact vs Russia in their previous incarnation as the USSR.
This “defense pact” has invaded, bombed and destroyed many countries within only my lifetime, it’s a laughable statement unless your historical horizon is less than a decade.
Living in America it’s incredible to me how people I run into don’t even know the countries that their own government has invaded using its “defense pact”, or pay attention to people whose lives they’ve ruined, and thus can’t even understand why people see them as a threat.
That’s some blatant Russian propaganda there. Blame NATO twice for Russian imperialism.
The “Russia had to invade a sovereign nation because they were talking about joining NATO to prevent Russia from invading them” logic has some holes to it.
The fact that Russia has invaded their neighbors 14 times since the end of the cold war tells you why one of their neighbors would want to join NATO.
Also, remember that time that Russia shot down a commercial airliner? The Ukrainians sure as hell do. That was the true beginning of the invasion, which is why Ukraine was in talks to join NATO.
And yes, people have the right to defend themselves. But the Israeli government has locked down the anti-terror propaganda, because Hamas is pretty vile as far as organizations go. It’s why Israel let Hamas grow and become powerful, and why the Israelis paid to keep Hamas in power for the last decade or so.
As long as Israel can point at Hamas, they have just enough of an excuse to claim their ethnic cleansing is actually just an anti-terror campaign.
Hamas is a full on terrorist organization, not that all terrorist organizations are bad. Or rather, there are some causes where a terrorist organization is the appropriate response. John Brown tried it. So did Nelson Mandela. But Hamas is a religious extremist terrorist organization. One that has distasteful views, and was sort of put in place by Israel for those views.
You see what I’m getting at here? Hamas is fucking evil, and Israel has mostly succeeded in making Hamas the face of Palestinian resistance against Israel.
I doubt many of the original leaders of Hamas are still alive, but that doesn’t matter either when Israel can just lie and say that whoever they kill is Hamas. It’s a bit maddening, and I doubt there’s an answer to it all except for the other Palestinian resistance groups to step up their social media game.
what about the 10s of thousands of baltics sent to siberia? wasn’t that a genocide? or all the famine in Ukraine? or the invasion of Hungary and checkoslovaka after they implemented democratic reforms?
The transport of Baltic peoples, Tatars, Japanese, etc were ethnic cleansing, but not genocide because it didn’t seek to destroy those people. I don’t think you’ll find anyone defending those actions.
The famine in Ukraine was part of a wider crop failure of the grain-producing regions of the USSR. The role Soviet policy of distribution grain, reaction to soviet policy in the form of destruction of grain and livestock, and the reaction to that resistance all played is contested, but no serious historian argues that the USSR intended to bring about the destruction of the Ukrainian people.
Life And Terror In Stalin’s Russia, is a great book that is critical of the USSR, but with more nuance than the western narrative. Here’s a free PDF.
The invasion of Hungary
While the initial uprising was sparked by democratic reformers, it was quickly co-opted by fascists, as evidenced by the destruction of communist imagery and murder of Hungarian communists.
i have my own narrative as an estonian. and stop talking about fascists, hungary and spain were never going to be fascist nuclear powers.
These pathetic foxes are pissed they’ve been neutralized by defederation. They’re mad that the contagion has been contained. That real lefties, even communists don’t take them seriously.
These guys aren’t fooling anyone. The online left doesn’t need their rotten discourse, and they don’t belong there.
It’s just 4chan cosplaying communism. Truly despicable.
These pathetic foxes are pissed they’ve been neutralized by defederation.
Hexbear has been around for 4 years, unfederated. It wasn’t until 10 months ago that they started slowly federating. At least try to be honest.
That real lefties, even communists don’t take them seriously.
Who determines what a “real lefty,” or a “real Communist,” if not Communists who regularly read theory, talk about it, and post memes that require understanding theory to even get?
It’s just 4chan cosplaying communism. Truly despicable.
Do you genuinely believe people would put in that much effort to meme amongst themselves something they don’t agree with?
Oh, they do agree with the imagery. Not so much with the actual left-wing values. Which is why I used the word “cosplay”.
Leftism isn’t just aesthetics, folks. It’s not enough to just hate american imperialism.
On what bounds do you say that? If they read Leftist theory, advocate for Leftism, and attack Imperialism and Capitalism, then they are Leftists.
No, because substituting one imperialism with another one you like more means you never understood any leftist theory to begin with.
In what manner does Hexbear advocate for expanding predatory IMF loans to the Global South, and exporting machinery and industrial Capital directly to the source of the Raw Materials so as to over-exploit the Global South by directly owning these sources of production?
You guys can’t help yourselves. Anyone interested can read the Nazbear slip-ups in this thread. You don’t even to do any hardcore research.
Hexbear is sort of like a village of eldritch abomination worshippers in a Lovecraftian horror story - isolated, insular, entirely wrapped up in their own esoteric rituals and ideas and language, and immediately and collectively hostile to outsiders.
If you’ve heard of Chapo Trap House that’s them. If not, most of those kids/idiots/trolls are the type of terminally online fake leftists that give other leftist a bad image in general. They were so ridiculous Reddit got tired of their shit and banned them a couple years back.
They were banned when reddit cracked down on any leftist thought, not because they were especially bad from what I saw.
They were banned around the same time as The Donald because everyone was tired of the shit both groups were doing.
No, The Donald was encouraging political violence and was becoming a legal liability for Reddit to continue hosting. But they needed to ban a major left wing subreddit at the same time to do a “both sides bad” thing and preempt the fascist talking points about social media having a liberal bias.
They were banned while saying John Brown did nothing wrong and that slaveowners deserve to die.
Sounds pretty cool to me.
While true there was a lot more behind the decision than that final post. They had been fighting with the admins for a long time.
evidence? I see people say this but from what I remember the mod team was repeatedly stonewalled by the admins, or at least that was their claims, and I don’t think the admins ever disputed that
Hardly, the mods kept refusing to do anything about the brigading of other subs. To the point the admins stepped in and removed a couple of them. Then afterward the sub decided they’d rather go private than comply. At this point most of back and forth is wiped out because the sub is locked. But there was far more going on for a while than their claim that one post shut them down immediately. They had already been in trouble for a couple months.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/bp39gb/chapotraphouse_gets_a_call_from_the_admins/
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fmfirtv1vndy21.png
I wasn’t clear enough, what I meant wasn’t that the admins literally never said anything to the mods, I meant they made it relatively unclear what exactly they needed to do to stop getting warnings and eventually getting banned. no conversation, just relatively vague commands from down high also, as you can see in the SRD thread it was never made clear if they were removed for anything besides the john brown posting. However, even this is more clear communication than I remembered so I’ll admit fault on that at least.
funny thing I found browsing the thread is this comment about why chapo got banned, which mentions brigading, something people constantly accused/accuse hexbear users of doing:
…
The second aspect of this is that chapo is becoming so large that it is capable of effectively “brigading” threads without any direct co-ordination on the subreddit. By this I’m referring to stuff like the police dog situation, in which any meaningfully upvoted thread on /r/aww and other “cute” subreddits gets a shitload of “40%”, “ACAB”, and other anti-cop rhetoric. While screenshots of this often get posted to /r/chapotraphouse, the vast majority of the time this is AFTER the thread has already been “brigaded” by chapo users scrolling through /r/all or the specific “cute” subreddits. This behavior is not against the TOS, but it is incredibly annoying to /r/aww mods and therefore concerning to the admins, because the “cute” subreddits are the easiest to manage and please, and more importantly, the most advertiser friendly. When chapo users fuck that up, there’s a problem.
…
sounds familiar doesn’t it?
There actually isn’t any such logic presented for the decision. Mostly just allusions to celebrating violence, the only examples of which were the anti-slavery posts I referenced.
The_Donald was dead amd had migrated to a non-reddit forum a month before the ban. It was typical “both sides” bullshit from a dude who always uses the kiddy gloves with fascists while throwing the book at any leftists
I do remember that, and I remember them half-assing the Donald by just letting them make a new sub (or overrun conspiracy irrc)
Yeah they immediately took over Conspiracy and consolidated the hold on Conservative. Made me really sad as conspiracy used to have some incredible rabbit hole posts. Then one day it was just TD all over again.
IIRC, the fun conspiracists moved to r/high_strangeness or something like that.
The Donald had largely abandoned the sub well before it was banned though.
Largely because they moved to different subs.
The Chapo crew didn’t want to calm down with all the threats of violence and other ridiculous antics. So they left completely.
Threats of violence against confederate slave owners.
Speaking of, John Brown was right.
TIL Reddit admins were confederate slavers
When the sub was put on probation, the post Reddit cited was justifying violence against slave owners. As far as I can tell, you just made up that they threatened Reddit admins.
Seeing the ban coming, they financed and suffered alpha and beta of the Lemmy platform we all enjoy. Then, they chose to become the most GLBTQ+ friendly destination on the internet.
As it’s always been, they cope with the horrible events with satirical, sarcastic humor. And, in the middle of that will be a well-reasoned, nuanced, and quite serious post.
But, perhaps the part I like most is the struggle sessions. The entire community will heavily focus on a current topic, then hash it out with good faith discussion.
Their shit isn’t convenient or comfortable. It’s not easy to understand. And, I fucking love them for it.
edit: Lazy coders need choose a randomized target value and timing or be a moderator to avoid detection by the user. Perceiving is easy when your code is trash. Ask for help from an industrial engineer.
Their supposed support of LGBTQ+ is all for naught when they openly fawn after Stalin
There’s much to learn from Stalin. But, advocating his authoritarian means is a bannable offense there just as they are in any meritable leftist forum. They tolerate a minority of revolutionaries ideologically leading the lumpen as it’s a historically very well-supoorted position. But, that doesn’t extend to physical force as that’s also a historically very well supported position.
It’s much easier, convenient, and comfortable to demonized them than understand them. They even provided proactive assistance when many were deciding if they should defederate. They voted internally for defederation to defend their community from the medicrity of the masses.
If not enjoying the image posts of young Stalin as some sort of brilliant maverick is mediocrity, well, so be it. They are clowns, and their beliefs structure is just like trump claiming he “loves the gays”
Young Stalin is where the good stuff is. It’s his implementation of those idealistic principles that’s unethical.
The rest of what you’ve said is strawman. Most important is the implying that they’re all of one mind. Diversity of ideology is perhaps their greatest strength.
Yeah they kept being able to back the most ridiculous claims and then suddenly I was like “oh no they were right all along” and got radicalized 🤷
Coming up with theory in an echo chamber isn’t hard.
and how they kept being able to back it up?
That’s the whole point of an echo chamber yes. You can say whatever you want without being challenged by other viewpoints and make anything seem plausible.
but they are linking a lot of outside sources. That’s what I mean by “backing their claims up”, studies about covid, about the ukraine war, about Israel, it’s not just someone making a claim and then everyone is nodding along.
What I am saying is they were able to completely upend the way I see the world and you just can’t do that by claiming thengs and linking to some other claims you make.
It’s surprisingly easy to backup horrible ideas, but that shouldn’t be your only concern. You also need to think about the morals and what happened last time it was tried.
The ends do not justify the means. The means are the ends.
As it’s always been, they cope with the horrible events with satirical, sarcastic humor. And, in the middle of that will be a well-reasoned, nuanced, and quite serious post.
Oh yes, they are so funny, misunderstood, thoughtful and nuanced thinkers.
F them and f you for defending them.
This ~1800 comment thread about whether lemm.ee should defederate with them is all you need for some eye opening, in case anyone needs that.
Above screenshot is from said thread.
The comrade in it actually suggests that there is a time and place for such rhetoric, it is just not right here, right now. you have to think politically and wait for your moment!
Yes, please read what the .ee admin says about where the bigoted users originate and the actions of the hexbear mods in response. It certainly speaks for itself.
The comrade in it actually suggests that there is a time and place for such rhetoric
Perhaps now is the time.
The kulaks were not an ethnic minority persecuted by the bolsheviks as a scapegoat for society’s ills. They were the economic class directly responsible for many of those ills. They were the capitalists of the peasantry, enclosing land and claiming ownership over what should have been the common means of production, precisely the kind of group that communists the world over want to destroy in order to liberate the majority of people.
When it was written that the kulaks were to be “liquidated”, it did not mean that they were to be mass executed, it meant that their private property was to be moved into public ownership, ending the existence of the kulak class and making them into regular workers.
As is the case in every single campaign of economic or social justice, the privileged class fought back with everything they had. Kulaks contributed to the Soviet Famine of 1930-1933 by mass slaughtering their cattle and burning their fields. Kulaks hoarded grain, took the wealth that they had stolen from their neighbors and fled the country, plotted sabotage and insurrection against the workers’ movement. And for those crimes, many Kulaks were caught and executed.
So if the original commenter’s great grandparents were kulaks who “suffered at the hands of the soviet union,” they deserved it.
Your portrayal of them just being made into regular peasants seems to me viewing the whole affair with more than rose colored glasses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization
All kulaks were assigned to one of three categories:[4]
Those to be shot or imprisoned as decided by the local secret political police. Those to be sent to Siberia, the North, the Urals, or Kazakhstan, after confiscation of their property. Those to be evicted from their houses and used in labour colonies within their own districts.By most people’s reckoning in most of planet earth they stole the lawfully earned property of kulaks and either murdered them or otherwise destroyed their lives. Treating them worse than most developed nations treat burglars and thieves.
If someone shot your grandpa and your uncle, send half your people to Siberia to die out there, and sent the other half to prison locally of course you would flee with whatever you could carry and of course you would at that point be an enemy of the regime that destroyed your life.
So if the original commenter’s great grandparents were kulaks who “suffered at the hands of the soviet union,” they deserved it.
I don’t understand your justification for what is ultimately pretty horrific treatment foisted on people ultimately just participating lawfully in society up until that point.
All kulaks were assigned to one of three categories:[4]
Source four on this wikipedia article is Robert Conquest, an antihistorical Cold Warrior if there ever was one - and most of the rest of that article doesn’t even do the courtesy of citing a hack. It’s just section after section of “this section has no sources”, who wrote this garbage?
If someone shot your grandpa and your uncle
Some brave Vietnamese soldier did exactly that, and my uncle frankly deserved it for signing up to go murder people on the other side of the world in the name of American Imperialism.
I don’t understand your justification for what is ultimately pretty horrific treatment foisted on people ultimately just participating lawfully in society up until that point.
Slaveowners were “just participating lawfully in society” too. Society sanctions a lot of incredibly damaging and amoral behavior, and when the repressed take power there is no reason why they should be expected to give their oppressors a pass just because it was legal at the time.
America didn’t go from legally sanctioning a behavior to murdering the people today who were behaving lawfully yesterday even if they were immoral fucks. If you don’t understand that then you don’t understand how normal societies run.
Tell me, how did Reconstruction go? Were the former slaves elevated to the status of citizens equal to their former masters?
No. The great post-Civil War failure of America was its failure to defend the gains made by the freed slave population, allowing the previous ruling class to swoop back in and reassert their power in a nearly-identical form to how it had been before. Sharecropping instead of slavery. This failure demonstrates quite succinctly why any social or economic justice movement cannot simply win the war - it must also continue to defend itself after the war, and that defense will by necessity take the form of repressing those members of the former ruling class who cannot accept the new status quo.
Perhaps now is the time.
No, Time for condoning class war and murder is never and nowhere.
Go back to hexbear, you poor, uneducated, lying, bolshevik piece of shit.
But thank you for showing anyone who may have not had an experience with you before what type of people you are.
One can always count on that, you morons just can’t help yourself.
If you don’t condone class war, then you are by necessity endorsing the current system. The current system which kills far, far more innocent people than any class war ever could, you lying, capitalist piece of shit.
🤭
You guys don’t even hide it anymore. You’re openly advocating for brutal police regimes. The jokes write themselves. Convenient.
Equality has never in the history of our species been given freely by the ruling class to the workers. It has always been taken after violent struggle, and after the initial struggle is over the working class must be willing to defend their gains else they will lose them.
You don’t get to call directing state power against the petite bourgeoisie a brutal police regime when your government is supporting the most brutal dictatorships in Africa, whose violence is directed at the working class.
Yeah I get to do that, because that’s what happened factually, sorry. No amount of whataboutism will change that. I don’t care about Western imperialists, fuck them too.
The vital context is wielding state power against internal threats. Which literally every state must do to continue to exist. It’s not whataboutism to point out that the state you currently live in is currently doing far worse, for far worse reasons in a context where your criticism can only be used for anticommunism.
Would you say it’s constructive for an Israeli to be critical of gay rights in Palestine? Of course not, because divorced of context, it only carries water for imperialism
As it’s always been, they cope with the horrible events with satirical, sarcastic humor. And, in the middle of that will be a well-reasoned, nuanced, and quite serious post.
It’s just tankie 4chan
Hello, low effort neolib troll. Thanks for the opportunity to continue to speak truth.
There’s a cultural similarity to what 4-chan was prior to the LOIC. But, they’re definitely not tankies. Sincere expressions of authoritarian means are soundly defeated and usually result in permabans. The principle and practice is consistent for MAGA, neolibs, and other authoritarians.
Definitely not a neolib, but I’m glad we agree about the similarities of Nazbear with 4chan
Definitely not a neolib
Language analysis of your post history says differently. If you’re not a neolib troll then perhaps you should stop presenting as such.
I call BS. My post history has mostly been shitting on LLMs lately, mainly for the consequences they have on the environment, which I think is mostly a left-wing concern.
Making shit up, how nice 🤭
Edit you haven’t read much, I suppose because My 5th-ish last post was arguing against the liberal appeal to civility, which is definitely not a “neolib” talking point 🤷♀️
Did I fault your content or your presentation of it?
Nice strawman. You just can’t help yourself.
I think HB and some of the other groups are mostly trolls or Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean, or aligned operatives trying to gas up trolls or wannabe trolls.
There are definitely some well meaning Americans and others who get suckered into the bullshit tornado that is those sites. They are definitely worth saving if we can. But it’s hard. They ban and block anyone with a dissenting voice no matter how calmly presented.
is everyone
in hexbearinsane?Yes.
I don’t mind communism. I do mind advocating for Russia, in a war where they are clearly the aggressor, and harassing then moving to harass the same left wing for not being as radical or as pro-russian and deluding themselves with false beliefs that they are alone and no one is left wing other than them
Totally agree with you. During the issue , there were some people that had a backhanded way of asking what i meant when I said that Russia had no reason to invade Ukraine. So I said that Putin was trying to get his glorious USSR back. I wasn’t being literal, but the past 20 years shows that he has been trying to annex states that were previously under the USSR or at the very least keeping extremely close, controllable ties with them. I got ridiculed and belittled without further request of clarification. And I think it’s because they aren’t interested or they are under the Russian propaganda machine.
He also pretty much said as much during his initial ramblings during the invasion- that ukraine and other former Soviet states are rightfully a part of Russia.
But in their eyes, I’m the crazy, illiterate, stupid lib
And yaknow, I wouldn’t even mind being viewed that way. It’s the shitty moderation style I will mock endlessly.
You can’t deliver garbage writing to communists and expect positive results. The standard of semantics and nuance are set by socio-economic authors predominantly from the mid-to-late nineteenth century. Prerequisite to even speaking is a comprehensive understanding of at least The Conquest of Bread. One is expected to have the ability to segregate content from presentation and ideology from means of implementation. It’s as if you walked into university dynamics and poorly presented an algebra-based approach to a single body problem.
In certain forums, unless I’m very well-informed about a topic, I’ve learned to shut the fuck up unless asking questions, and to ask them with humility. In communist forums, which always stress education, I consistently receive high quality answers.
It seems to me you’re under the belief that they can say and believe whatever they want without criticism, and they shouldn’t be allowed to be criticized. Also, I see you have used the phrase “neolib,” so your beliefs are probably more in line with theirs than mine are. Of course, you’re not going to be criticized. However, I do have the right to critique the approach with their criticism. The short-and-skinny of what I observed is that they can dish it out, but can’t take it. It’s irrational and a very closed off way if thinking. If they want to be talked to and about in a certain way, then they themselves need to do the same
You delivered nonsense without even considering semantic. You felt entitled to others figuring it out for you. And, you were rejected due to your lack of effort.
I’ll now reject you for gaslighting me about your comments, which I’ve read, and the follow up strawman.
It’s simply not good enough. I don’t care why. But, I know you’ve nothing to contribute but practice material for identifying logical fallacy.
Well thank you letting me live rent free in your head. You wasted your mental energy by coming here and saying that. And you have proved nothing besides exactly what I said. You didn’t come here to get an understanding of me, you came here to try and call me out.
So do you feel better about yourself? You holding your head up higher now?
My guy, this is a wild attempt a retort, given this entire thread was so you could come call Hexbears out, not to get any understanding.
My friend, I don’t give a shit
Jerking communist doctrine while ignoring historic facts is indeed their with “what about capitalism” MO tiring.
Yeah the west sucks but they are winning the battle for now. Pretending like communist Revolution is the better route over structural reforms is also unstated theme.
Which leads me to believe that they are bad faith actors.
Communist revolution because capitalism has failed as predicted is the primary and public point of community unification for hexbear. Your assertions are laughable.
It is definitely failing lol but idea that some strong man is going to come to save us from the current strong men is laughable ;)
Also, foundational text only ID’ed the problem, it never provided a solution. Tankie larping leninst or Maoist is straight up bad faith actor from perspective of the doctrine since it has proven to be ineffective as executed by their respective “thinkers”
It is definitely failing lol but idea that some strong man is going to come to save us from the current strong men is laughable ;)
When you’ve definitely read theory
I’m not convinced you’ve read or have a basic understanding of any foundational text, based on your assertions here.
I got ridiculed and belittled without further request of clarification.
This person is saying Putin wants the territory back, not the government system. They even say the statement was hyperbolic.
Now they say that. They also lied and said that they weren’t asked any clarifying questions, when the linked comment proves that they very clearly were. They’re just trying to backtrack their unreasonable claims after the fact to make the response they got seem more disproportionate.
Or is clarifying further after being asked a question about it. That seems to be the most natural result, no?
Heavily scratched liberal gets banned from hexbear for being a debate pervert and trying to start fights, immediately proceeds to call everyone there mentally ill
What the fuck is a debate pervert? Yall are weird af to be following this dude over here and commenting on his posts and having your alt accounts or other weirdo friends upvote lol looks pathetic.
Constantly going back and forth on technicalities rather than actually discussing an issue. I admit I’m guilty of it from time to time, but after I get banned from a community or an instance I don’t make a thread in a place where the people agree with me begging for validation.
I’m not banned from there and I agree with OP. Those people need serious help.
Edit: I mean they think Donald Trump is a liberal FFS. Donald Fucking Trump.
Dude…he used to be. Lol
I mean they think Donald Trump is a liberal FFS. Donald Fucking Trump
I mean, yes. Donald Trump generally supports the free market, individualist ideology of Liberalism, and is extremely pro Capitalism.
Liberalism doesn’t mean “left wing” or “center left.”
Trump is also a far-right populist, but falls under the umbrella of liberalism.
Lol Demential DonOLD is a fucking puppet who got his stage thanks to Russian interference. He’s whatever the highest bidder wants. Obviously Putin, the highest of bidders, wants him in so he can have his access to top secret documents restored and the supplies to Ukraine stopped.
Here’s the thread in question btw. The mods left up OP’s comments that had some semblance of effort.
OP claimed putler was trying to bring back the USSR or some shit here lmao. At least OP deleted it.
They also went on to equate Palestine with Israel and refused to take a pro-Palestinian stance.
this person needs serious help, and by help i mean
eliminating one or the other is agiast self determination, 2 state or die.
States don’t have rights, humans have rights. An ethnostate is not compatible with human rights. The only solution is a single, multicultural Palestine.
Nice to see you going mask-off and thinking Nazi Germany should have remained.
You are correct. Do your mental health a favour and block that instance along with lemmygrad.
Nope. They seem pretty sane and rational in comparison to places like Reddit, Lemmy.world, Twitter, 4chan, Facebook, etc.
You wrote reddit twice in a row.
Found the Hexbear user doing a psy-op.
Edit: stay mad, tankies.
Have you considered that its simply possible for somebody to have an opinion that differs from your own?
That persons instance and hexbear are defederated. It’s unlikely they’re a secret hexbear user.
Prolly just a regular idiot then
huh, surprisingly this tanke isn’t using the hard r
I’m not a tankie lol. I’ll use this opportunity to encourage everyone to vote for Kamala Harris though, and to say fuck hexbear and it’s smooth brained users.
oh sorry for assuming all of .ml users are tankies, please go switch to another instance though as you will be categorized as a tankie.
Yeah I’ve been meaning to but I’m lazy. When I signed up I didn’t k ow much about lemmy and ml was popular with signups
Basic mental health config for a non tankist user of Lemmy is to block hexbear, lemmygrad and lemmy.ml instances first. Then, any user from there that you will see calling nazis anyone who don’t think like them.
I almost left Lemmy thinking it was a tankist shithole before understanding the pattern.
Then it gets back to the average former-Reddit techie activist, which is still pretty left.Yes they are insane/extremists
Obviously you can’t lump them all into one category, but the majority of them seem to be willing to cause chaos on other instances for a laugh. Doesn’t sit right with me, so i blocked them
